Changes to Council Meeting Procedures

Effective now, procedures for Council meetings have been further modified as a result of a new by-law passed at the recent full Council meeting on September 25.  The main change is the elimination of one standing committee – the one that was a virtual Committee of the Whole since all Councillors attended. The change is that the Strategic Priorities and Policy Standing Committee is amalgamated into the Corporate, Finance, and Legislative Standing Committee.  The Mayor plus two other councillors are members; currently these are Deputy Mayor Beatty and Councillor Barber but that could change. There were a number of other minor changes mostly to do with minutes and items on the Agenda but notable were some things that did NOT change – see the list below.

The only objection to the new procedures came from Councillor Miriam Mutton.  She was concerned that with only 3 members of Council on Standing Committees that this would mean a quorum would be two.  But this means that a two way non-public discussion (e.g. the Mayor and Deputy Mayor) could be an official meeting.  No-one else was concerned.

But before I list what did NOT change, I must point to a few items that previously changed with little or no debate.

Recent Agenda Changes

  1. Lord’s Prayer. It was not that long ago that Regular Council meetings started with a recitation of the Lord’s Prayer.  After recognizing that this is not allowed per a Supreme Court ruling, this became a “moment of reflection” before that too was dropped.
  2. The statement of land acknowledgement. It seemed that again without debate, all meetings in the Town must start with acknowledging that we are on indigenous land.  I have never heard any explanation as to why this is suddenly required.
  3. Correspondence.  Many resolutions of Cobourg Council and those of other Ontario Municipalities require a letter to upper tier Government(s) and copies to all other Municipalities.  Most of these are “for information” but sometimes our Council wants to support an issue so adds to the deluge of lobbying letters.  Since there are so many and they often need no action, Brent has sensibly created a special day/time when they are posted: Fridays at 4:00 pm on escribe.

What did NOT change – despite suggestions (these did NOT happen)

  • Change time limit for speakers from the current 10 minutes to 5 minutes
  • Combine four (4) Standing Committees into 2 Standing Committees with each committee consisting of all Councillors
  • Schedule 2 Regular Council meetings a month

These ideas were not debated.

If you want to look at the new By-law see Resources below.  I have also provided a link to the previous by-laws.

The bylaw is now in effect and the changes will happen starting with all meetings after 25 September.

Resources

Previous Procedural By-Laws

Note that each new by-law indicates which previous by-law is repealed.  You can find all by-laws at this page. (Thanks Brent)

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Leslie
1 day ago

Dear Mayor Cleveland (response to your below comments),

I applaud your efforts to address the County regarding issues around drugs, radical leftist ideology & the homeless. I would like to note I am not ‘retired, nor do I come from an old boys club’. I am a young woman, with children — not that it matters, as I AM CANADIAN.

You state; “We will not be an organzation serving a particular group of people because they have been here a long time or those who know the right people.” This is an untrue statement. You are part of an “organization” that is serving particular groups. 

Your “organization” Divides, Excludes & promotes Inequality (DEI) through the flying of particular groups flags, painting walkways, “celebrating” & “acknowledging” countless days & months of particular groups.

Adopt neutrality & encourage a fair environment where we can exist — without having social issues or politics incessantly shoved down our throats. Divisive Identity Politics promotes Tribalism, regressive ideologies & undermines UNITY

Nikki
Reply to  Leslie
23 hours ago

“Standing Ovation” for you Leslie.

lucas cleveland
Reply to  Leslie
22 hours ago

Leslie, Please look into which year and what council decided to hire and introduce an EDI coordinator. Then lets also consider if that position was even rehired during this term of Council? We are less then two years into this term and it will take more then just one term to fully undue some of the issues this community and organzation face.

As a government agency we are bound by certain mandated responsibilities, policies and codes that you and I may not agree with but as a tax funded organzation we often do not get a choice in the matter. Some of the changes that you would want to make can only be initiated by the federal or provincial government.

In terms of your concerns with Identity based politics, please refer to my messages about all extreme types of ideologies having no place in politics in my view. Please be comforted in knowing that we share some of the same concerns on this subject but not all. I am very concerned with some of the messaging and lessons that are being taught to my son in todays day and age, but in my role as the Mayor of Cobourg, I have to be extremely careful.

There are many people in the community, people on both sides of these issues, people who like yourself, assume and project that I am on one side or the other because I choose to not take a side. Political capital, time and my own energy is not a limitless resource. The reality is that I am focused on the promises I made to this community when I ran. You can find them at http://www.lucasforcobourg.ca and as you will clearly see I never committed to ending or even trying to fight identity based politics. I also am not actively working to promote them.

I will continue to focus on the things that clearly I committed to addressing and changing.

Leslie
Reply to  lucas cleveland
21 hours ago

Thank you for your response Mayor Cleveland. I appreciate how public you have made yourself. 

I am hopeful the Federal government will abandon regressive & socialist D.E.I. policies. Please note, it was not “assumed” or “projected” that you are personally on one side or the other. To reiterate: “You are part of an “organization” that is serving particular groups”, which is contrary to your comment.

I like to think the majority of Canadians would demand more unifying policies — less stifling & potentially tyrannical identity politics.

Again, I praise your efforts “…in continuing to stand up for accountability & transparency & to ask for a new path forward at the County of Northumberland.” And your pledge to “…ensure that the legitimate concerns of Cobourg residents will not be suppressed”.

Thank you for your time & civility.

Rob
1 day ago

Don’t take your eye off the ball with this one folks. The discussion about the indigenous acknowledgement is only a distraction. These are very dangerous decisions that are intentionally designed to limit public input, discourse and transparency, and increase political influence of the Mayor. This is alarming. He continues to tinker with the political processes rather than engaging with this Council to address real issues. Has anyone looked at the number of newly listed commercial buildings that are on the market in the downtown area and elsewhere? Our town Is being decimated and we’re getting distracted.

Last edited 1 day ago by Rob
Kathleen
Reply to  Rob
5 hours ago

Our Town is being decimated due to Northumberland Council sticking Transition House smack dab in the middle of our downtown. Real Estate values have plummeted and businesses are jumping ship. And who can blame them?

Dave
2 days ago

Who is behind all these changes? Which one or ones are putting forth the motions? This should be made clear to all voters. I am sick of politically correct where further division of parts of society is encouraged, concerned about the elimination of the number of councillors in committees and the elimination of committees where Cobourg’s future through governance is determined. Not in favour.

Ben
Reply to  Dave
2 days ago

The Mayor and his pliant Director of Legislative Affairs, All in the name of ‘efficiency’ which unfortunately has destroyed local democracy.

Old Sailor
Reply to  Dave
1 day ago

Dave

In my view, the DEI folks in Cobourg and the County are trying to eliminate Canada’s history from between when Cabot and Cartier were snooping around in the early 1600’s to when Justin Trudeau first took office in 2016.

So the history of Canadian settlors from the first French explorers in Lower Canada to the English settlors in Upper Canada is a part of Canadian history which must be expunged. Instead we should learn of the culture and limited successes of the Indigenous population which is now represented by 600+ First Nation groups in Canada. 5% of our population. All apparently smarter than the post 1600 settlors but much more disunited.

Do we have a Federal holiday celebrating the early French and English settlors in Canada. NO. Do we celebrate a holiday for all of the other European immigrants that journeyed to Canada from other European countries after 1600 including the Ukraine. NO.

Instead, we fly flags at Victora Hall celebrating our Indigenous heritage and our Queer heritage. Yikes. What is missing from this formula? Many of the Cobourg Councilors we elected and our appointed County Councilors appear to be extreme Justin Trudeau left wing representatives that are not at all interested in celebrating Canada’s full history. I would not be surprised if future Council meetings will have to be opened with a Smudging Ceremony and closed on prayer mats.

cornbread
Reply to  Old Sailor
1 day ago

In my opinion, it’s about time the indigenous became real Canadian Citizens getting a proper education that is pretty well currently provided and taking their part as equals in Canadian society…paying their fair share of taxes and receiving only their fair share of government support. If you can’t support yourself in the far north, then maybe it’s time to move a bit further south, get a real job and take part in the country’s well being.

Concerned Cobourg Resident
Reply to  Old Sailor
1 day ago

Well said Old Sailor!

And then they call us racists and if we celebrate our English heritage!!! Funny how that works…

Ben
2 days ago

Correct me if I am wrong but if I am a Councillor I sit on one standing committee and attend a Regular Council Meeting. This month that means that I attend two committee meetings and one Regular meeting.

Great job if you can get it three meetings a month and fulltime pay for it!

Carol
Reply to  Ben
2 days ago

I’m with you Ben there seems to be no oversight or assistance from the councillors. Our town is a mess so please tell me how all these changes from what did work is making cobourg better. All I see is less work for those elected and more money. Sure us different from the old days when council was a civic duty and it worked for the people

Linda C
Reply to  Ben
2 days ago

Not sure when $25,000 was considered full time wages. (see June 11, 2022 post). And don’t forget the time that is spent dealing with citizens complaints and issue.

As a result, base salaries on July 1, 2022 will be:
Mayor: $45,412; Deputy Mayor: $31,082; Councillor: $25,963

Ben
Reply to  Linda C
2 days ago

The scale will be adjusted every year, and how can Citizens’ complaints be addressed when Councillors are forbidden to talk to Staff?

Last edited 2 days ago by Ben
Bryan
Reply to  Ben
2 days ago

Ben,
I don’t believe that Council members are “forbidden to talk to Staff”. They can ask questions about Town “issues”. What they can’t do is direct (order) staff to do something.

Rational
Reply to  Linda C
2 days ago

This was the original plan. Did it not go into effect?

“In July of 2024, the mayor’s salary jumps to $65,000. The deputy mayor’s salary goes from $31,082 to $41,541 in 2023 and to the full $52,000 in July of 2024. Councillor salaries will go from $25,963 to $35,732 in July of 2023 and to $45,500 in July of 2024.”

And then I guess expenses are in addition to the above.

Given the value Cobourg residents are getting from this term they are being overpaid.

John Draper
Reply to  Rational
2 days ago

To the best of my knowledge, Councillor salaries are as shown on my Council info page here: https://cobourginternet.com/council

Carol
Reply to  Linda C
2 days ago

Best check the latest updates on salaries I think 2022 was when we had the last council. This council has voted for increases. Also they are not allowed as I understand it to have any dealings with the staff. How can you run a town like this?????

Bryan
Reply to  Linda C
2 days ago

Linda C,
The July 2022 salaries information comes from a consultant’s report on Council compensation presented to the Committee of the Whole June 22, 2022

https://pub-cobourg.escribemeetings.com/filestream.ashx?DocumentId=23014

The consultant’s recommendations were approved at the regular Council meeting June 29, 2022

The 2023 salaries are as follows:
Mayor Cleveland $47,475 + $3,500 (Holdco) $21693 (NC)
DM Beatty: $31,890
Councilors: $26,545 to 26730

https://todaysnorthumberland.ca/2024/04/04/cobourg-council-costs-for-2023-reported/#:~:text=Mayor%20Lucas%20Cleveland%20collected%20a,%2431%2C889.75%20and%20expenses%20of%20%243%2C286.10.

“Expenses” are costs incurred in the course of carrying out the Town’s business by the council members. These costs are paid by the Town just as they are for Town staff. They are not part of compensation.

Last edited 2 days ago by Bryan
Concerned Cobourg Resident
2 days ago

Why would they drop the Lords prayer but keep the indigenous land acknowledgement?

Prima Facie, both of these are religious practices.

You either have ALL of them, or NONE of them. Because anyone can have their own religion, it is untenable to have all practices acknowledged, therefore none can be acknowledged.

Get with it Cobourg!

Andre
2 days ago

Miriam Mutton is consistently the smart one.

Further to land acknowledgment, I have high respect for survival in a harsh climate, and knowing the land. We are disconnected from it now. I also acknowledge that indigenous peoples warred and took slaves hundreds of years ago – life was tough and short.

Concerned Cobourg Resident
Reply to  Andre
2 days ago

……but that was 100 years ago. What relevance does it have today? Are you going to give your land and house back to them, like Trudeau and the rest of the reparations crowd wants you to believe?

Remember this is a problem the politicians caused with their backwards treaties and residential schools. YOU, the citizen did not do this, they did. Don’t let these politicians mess with your empathy. It is THEIR problem, not yours.

Sandpiper
Reply to  Concerned Cobourg Resident
1 day ago

I appreciate your Directness to this matter .
Your correct . Power Hungry Greedy Politicians

I was at a opening municipal ceremony a few months ago north of here in a respectable community of Empire Loyalists and Brits .
They acknowledged the Native land situation all wright
but with a Twist —- they were referenced to as
” occupying lands of the defeated nations ”

It never caused a stir

Lucas Cleveland
Reply to  Sandpiper
1 day ago

This is concerning Mr. Sandpiper. When you refer to a “respectable community of empire Loyalists and Brits” did you mean to imply that communities not primarily made up of British people are not as “respectable” ?

Perhaps I am wrong and that isn’t what you meant to imply however it would track as there is often a hint of xenophobia in the comments from some in the community who may have come to Cobourg many years ago to get away from ‘those kind of people.’ I think that can be a slippery slope and I do not engage with those who think this way. I have said many times that I do not see the point of addressing those who want a return to the ‘good old days” where they as individuals felt more ‘comfortable’ and relevant. I am proud of the fact Cobourg is becoming a more diverse and welcoming community and I am proud to raise my son in this community despite its issues around drugs, radical leftist ideology and the homeless, issues I continue to address at the County.

Knowing that you are not alone, perhaps this explains why you and some of your friends are so ‘frustrated’ at the ‘changes’ happening in Cobourg. It makes sense as many of the people moving here are not ‘ Empire Loyalists and Brits” and they are now much younger and have different values then those who traditionally retired here and post on this blog.

I will not get into my personal position on land acknowledgements, my views on indigenous relations or any specific indigenous issues as my views do not come from any EDI training or political appropriateness. I have developed my own perspective and opinions through years of working alongside my indigenous friends and co-workers on the oil rigs and living next door to the community of Bears Paw in Alberta.

I think it’s important to point out; the last residential school in Canada was closed in 1997, Generational trauma is a real and scientific fact, and I am personally friends with with men in their 40’s, who were taken from their families as children and sexually abused after being put into residential schools. This wasn’t 100 years ago or some far off place, it was happening in this province, in the 1980’s when many of you were adults and unaware.

I am only guessing but perhaps the reason so many are now focused on education and acknowledgements is to ensure that we don’t raise another generation of people who think that “its not their problem” and that it all happened 100 years ago.

Sandpiper
Reply to  Lucas Cleveland
1 day ago

I just found it interesting that another community
approached it differently But there was no disrespect
but maybe a Municipal legal opinion
FYI I went to school road on the bus with and grew up next to a First Nation and still have a lot of friends their
all Elderly — Elders now .
I didn’t have to take a Course on this either .

Ben
Reply to  Lucas Cleveland
1 day ago

Lucas disturbing to think that you don’t like the issues of the day –its issues around drugs, radical leftist ideology and the homeless,”

Surely as an inclusive Mayor you should be welcoming diverse points of view as being part of a modern Society instead of disparaging those who hold different political views than yours!

lucas cleveland
Reply to  Ben
23 hours ago

This is why I do not like posting here. I will learn eventually!

I did NOT say I don’t “like the issues of the day”. Please do not put words into my mouth.

I very clearly wrote,  “I am proud to raise my son in this community despite its issues around drugs, radical leftist ideology and the homeless, issues I continue to address at the County.”

The statement communicates that I am both proud of Cobourg’s achievements while also acknowledging that we still have a long way to go in terms of addressing issues of drugs, radical leftist ideology and the increasing number of homeless people on our streets. I also pointed out clearly that these issues need to be addressed at the County level and that I am working on them.

Ben, I always welcome diverse points of view, I am a political nerd who loves the debate, but only to a point. I do not welcome or entertain the views of white supremacy, radical Islam or Christian fundamentalists who believe homosexuality should be outlawed. Yes, even in 2024 I still get and uncomfortable number of these terrible emails to my inbox. I also do not welcome views from some ardent social advocates, many who are so focused on their one particular cause that they fail to care or consider the costs and social ramifications.

I do not and did not “disparage those who hold different political views.” Again please stop with the accusations. I can call out extremism and still be open to different views. Let me be clear, I will continue to, without remorse avoid promoting or advocating any radical ideologies as the Mayor of Cobourg. I am elected to serve the majority of the people of Cobourg.

In my humble opinion elected leaders have a responsibility to avoid all extremism, be it religious, ideological or political to protect a healthy, accepting and modern democratic society. We as a society need to try and reduce the trend of political polarization as it clearly serves no one but the extremists and can actually prevent the meaningful debate and appropriate compromises necessary for good governance.

Last edited 23 hours ago by lucas cleveland
Ben
Reply to  lucas cleveland
21 hours ago

Please define “radical leftist ideology” just so we know what it is that you think should not be allowed in Cobourg despite our inherent rights to hold and express different views, radical leftist views as well as white supremacist views too.

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Ben
20 hours ago

Ben, just because supporting an offensive “radical leftist ideology” is legal doesn’t mean that every thinking resident should not oppose it.

Ben
Reply to  Ken Strauss
19 hours ago

Bring on the thought police Ken just admit some people have different ideas than you and it is a supremacist argument to say that you know better

Ben
Reply to  Ken Strauss
18 hours ago

Define offensive leftist ideology please Ken

Andre
Reply to  Lucas Cleveland
18 hours ago

Mayor Cleveland, just an aside really…

A young former Fort Chipewyan chief was a guest at our farmhouse one summer, as he considered starting a new life in Ontario. He went to residential school and I noticed right away he was especially adept at making friends and ingratiating himself in a new situation. I think that was a learned skill from his life experience. He got a job right away. He was an excellent shot who dealt with all our ground hogs, and hosted at summer’s end a proper sweat lodge ceremony. He had the verbage down and the steam was so hot I had to cheat and steal some air from outside.

I also note that Tomson Highway says residential school was the best thing that ever happened to him.

Residential school had cons but also pros people are loathe to admit. An observation, not a justification.

Last edited 18 hours ago by Andre
Andre
Reply to  Concerned Cobourg Resident
1 day ago

It is the current fashion to re-evaluate the past through the lens of our enlightened present. The unintended epiphany is that in the mean, no one is superior to anyone else. That was my point.

Everyone in the world has victimhood either within them or their lineage, because we are human.

Group victimhood has the potential for money and power, like a union, but drowns out individual victimhood…so stories remain unheard.

The same people who work so hard to amass pointlessly large connection scores on Linkedin are the ones who compete for the length, breadth, girth and quantity of land acknowledgments. Have sympathy for them from afar, but none up close.

The CBC’s Baroness Von Sketch sums land acknowledgment nicely.

Concerned Cobourg Resident
Reply to  Andre
1 day ago

Well said!!

Sandpiper
2 days ago

I think Councilor Mutton’s concern may be Warranted Is this to maintain Secrecy or Control over items the Public needs to know about .
Our Councilors do not seem to Know or care about the working and Whats really Going on around them in the various departments .
Nor do they seem to understand why the People and Professionals trying to work with the Towns various Departments are so frustrated .
It does not matter which department Planning , Policing , Engineering
etc etc . The Council needs to be more involvement and understanding as to
the dealings of Everything Cobourg inorder to Properly look after and into
our Concerns and Representation of its Citizens

Lucas Cleveland
Reply to  Sandpiper
1 day ago

Mr. Lawson, I do understand your continued frustration and ardent criticism. There are many individuals in this community who ‘enjoyed’ a particular way of doing business for years making a great deal of money in this community. There was a time when those who knew the right staff members and knew the right councillors could “make things happen fast”.

The town of Cobourg is no longer a small town. We do not give special treatment to people like yourself or your friends. I promise that this corporation will continue changing to become a more effective, more efficient customer focused organization that serves the entire community equally and fairly. We will not be an organzation serving a particular group of people because they have been here a long time or those who know the right people. Having an “old boys club” run this town isn’t appropriate and its why this community voted for a change two years ago. Your continued complaints of a “glorious past” where decisions were made by a few powerful unelected individuals will continue to fall on deaf ears with this Mayor. It’s why I no longer take meetings with you but I can empathize with the frustration you must be experiencing.

I find it interesting that you would suggest that “people and professionals trying to work with the towns various department are so frustrated”. Is it really all people or perhaps just you, your developer friends and other ‘old boys’ that are now very frustrated because you have completely lost the ability to ‘influence’ the organzation, council and staff?

The Cobourg staff are gaining provincial, federal and international acclaim. A fully paid trip to the U20 in India where I was invited to speak about the industry leading work of Cobourg Staff. Staff was recognized nationally by the FCM (Federation of Canadian Municipalities) this year. To get ahead of the criticism sure to come mentioning ‘awards’ and ‘international recognition’, lets talk hard numbers. In just the past two years this staff and this council have been awarded over 35 million in federal and provincial grants from various levels of government and our ‘frustrating staff” was able to ensure more houses were built in Cobourg last year then Peterborough, a city with 12 times the staff and budget!

Please lets all start focusing on the County. If we reduced tax in Cobourg 3% we save $900,000. a Reduction of 3% at County = 6.5 million

Concerned Cobourg Resident
Reply to  Lucas Cleveland
1 day ago

You claim to not give special treatment to people. Why is council flying a pride flag? Aren’t we all just CANADIANS? Why are you acknowledging indigenous land rights? Just because Trudeau says so?

You do realize, there were peoples and organisms that came BEFORE the indigenous peoples. What about them? If you believe in evolution, then where is the acknowledgement for the monkeys and bacteria that we evolved from? This is no joke, and this is the logical conclusion to the woke nonsense circulating these days.

What about English people, French people, Moroccan people, Afghan people, Autistic people, Jewish people, Muslim people, etc… Where is there flag at city hall??? As you can see, there is no way to acknowledge everyone’s race, nation, heritage or group.

If you did acknowledge everyone, then all we would be paying you to do for 24 hours of your day is to acknowledge people. So then, you can acknowledging ALL people, or NONE of them.

It is much easier and INCLUSIVE to acknowledge ONLY the fact that we are simply CANADIANS!!!

I am not the only one who echoes these sentiments. Stop being a left-wing, woke mouthpiece and stand up for ALL Canadians, not just certain groups!

Sandpiper
Reply to  Lucas Cleveland
1 day ago

Not sure as to how one should respond to the fact this town has had a Nonfunctioning Planning Dept for the better part of 2 + years now
and yes I have heard getting a meeting with anyone in Cobourg is difficult and frustrating .

Time is money out of everyone’s pocket .
So why are the Taxes not being lowered ? Our Retirement Community has had some of the highest tax hikes east ot Metro over the last few yrs. and many of our Developments are pre construction sales to out of town investor groups some foreign, that do not live in these homes but rather cut them up & rent them at rents needed to carry their mortgages. These are not family homes to be proud of
unless your building say another Brampton
— Grants come with a Cost and performance requirements .

Just a thought
Reply to  Lucas Cleveland
19 hours ago

You don’t give special treatment? You are petitioning the council to opt for giving a secret developer (?) $40K – everyone knows it won’t be $25K. Nicole and Miriam called out exactly that. You want to call it progressiveness – it’s favouritism or, at least sets the table for it.
We have this negative perception of what the ‘old boys club’ looks like. And that’s the narrative you’re hoping everyone is embracing right now. There was absolutely an old boys club in Cobourg. But, it didn’t exist or act in secrecy. They met often, in the community, most days at a certain coffee shop. Everyone knew. Most were friendly to and about them. They were successful, connected and often progressive for their time. We had things in Cobourg. Things got done. Are you trying to say that things in the world, in life, in industry aren’t connected to who you know? One of the most important lessons you learn while earning a business degree or MBA is NETWORKING. You’re a political nerd, huh?
The trouble now in Cobourg, is no one knows or connects with staff because most of them don’t live here. There was a time when they were community members, you saw them out for dinner, you watched them raise their kids at the festivals. Today they get in their car and most drive at least 30 minutes out-of-town.
There is no tone in text and I’m not saying this is your intention at all. Take it, perhaps, as some constructive criticism. Often times, when you are writing or speaking, your tone and way of putting things come across as condescending and ego-driven. Often your self-depreciation comes across more like victimhood. Again, I’m not saying that’s your intention but when you have this many people in the community this upset about many things, it’s not a great look.
You rally a lot of support when you’re beating your chest and ‘asking the hard questions’ at the county meetings. It’s an easy stage to be a martyr at. But, you advocated to buy 310 Division. Are you going to say that you were not informed about the intention for use? That deal closed faster than any Government project I have ever seen. I know you like to separate those two roles you hold. Nobody at that table does that. You’re playing a different game than everyone else. And, you’re losing. Look around that table. Most have been around longer, they have more experience and they care about the relationships in their community. They are doing it better than Cobourg is. Maybe it’s time to find a few ‘old boys’ of your own.

Bryan
Reply to  Just a thought
16 hours ago

Just a Thought,

Perhaps look at the Brookside deal from a business perspective. The province has property that it wants to sell and the buyers aren’t overly interested. Bargain price and still no takers. Finally one shows interest and a deal is struck. This is all between the province and the buyer. Cobourg doesn’t have a seat at the table.

The buyer asks the Town to pay for the sewer capacity study: $25-40K. Some Council members agree. Everyone goes nuts. How dare they?

Consider the following in favour of getting the deal done:
-with Brookside in private ownership, the encampment is done
-staff, Council, cops, fire, EMT and residents can focus on more productive concerns
-the province doesn’t pay property tax. Instead it pays a nominal “payment in lieu” (about $3,500)
-the new Brookside owner will pay substantially more in property tax than the province’s payment in lieu
-the Town will recover the $25-40K through new property taxes, development fees and possibly “development (growth) grants”

What are the negatives?

Just a thought
Reply to  Bryan
15 hours ago

Sure…maybe.
The buyer could also buy the property and sit on it. We have no idea. They could demolish the property and pay taxes on vacant land. Sure, they can enforce a trespass order and have the encampment dispersed (be careful what you wish for when there IS NO PLAN to mitigate any of the incredible damage being done by the lack of policy and absence of law enforcement).

Regardless, I’m commenting on the remark made by the Mayor that favouritism will not be shown. From the outside, that’s exactly what it looks like. The context doesn’t really matter. Pressure the owner of the property (Province) as the seller, to come to the table and negotiate. People on this blog often complain when developers ask for support in covering the astronomical costs to satisfy many a whim of the unorganized, inefficient planning department. In this deal, the buyer didn’t even have to ask. No one went nuts, by the way (except for the Mayor, shaming council members for asking questions when something completely out of the ordinary was sprung on them).

I look at most things from a business perspective. This is a business practice the Mayor stated will not and does not happen in Cobourg. It’s praying on the emotions of people who have every right to be angry, exhausted and desperate because of the trauma, frankly, that has been unleashed on the east end of Cobourg. We will solve this problem…all we have to do is offer to pay for this one study (very unlikely to be only $40K).

It’s doing a favour for an unknown private developer. Honestly, I don’t have a problem with it. I think the Town should do things to encourage private development – private developers are better at it than both the Town and the County. I have a problem with the Mayor saying he doesn’t support something and then championing the very thing he ‘doesn’t support’ right in front of everyone and proudly accepting thanks for “solving” a problem that will change, without getting better.

Last edited 15 hours ago by Just a thought
Nikki
Reply to  Just a thought
3 hours ago

Old Boy’s Club got things done.

Ben
Reply to  Lucas Cleveland
18 hours ago

Tell us your plans to reduce taxes by 3 percent.Btw the only reason we built more houses than Peterborough was because of the work done by Councils and staff who did the work years ago don’t claim credit for the work done by others who came before you. How many site plans have been approved in the last two years?

Last edited 18 hours ago by Ben
Rational
Reply to  Lucas Cleveland
3 hours ago

Mr. Cleveland would it be possible for you to support two of your statements?

First you said:

“was able to ensure more houses were built in Cobourg last year then Peterborough, a city with 12 times the staff and budget!”

Information I have is that Peterborough issued 435 New House Permits while Cobourg issued 390. So Peterborough exceeded Cobourg.

My figures are based on 1.) the Jan. 12, 2024 Peterborough Report that the City exceeded the Provincial Target for new house construction for 2023. And 2.) for Cobourg the Northumberland County Annual Development Report for 2023 dated Mar. 5, 2024 presented by the Planning Committee, with such report approved by the CAO Ms. Moore.

Second you said:

“Please lets all start focusing on the County. If we reduced tax in Cobourg 3% we save $900,000. a Reduction of 3% at County = 6.5 million”

What is the relevancy of this statement as you are comparing apples to oranges. What is the exact $ benefit that would flow through to Cobourg taxpayers if the County reduced its taxes by 3%? The $6.5M appears based on the total County budget of ~ $200M which includes Tax Levy (our part) , Grants, Other Revenue, and Debentures.

Ben
Reply to  Rational
1 hour ago

while Cobourg issued 390″
These permits are the last stage in a very long application/siteplan process. For instance the permits issued are probably for the units in the Tribute plan and the others would be in the Densmore Rd units. These plans have been in the works for years – Tribute for example probably 20 years since the original “Area C” study was started.

A far better question to be put would be – “How many siteplan applications have been approved in the last two years?” Then start boasting!

Rational
Reply to  Ben
34 minutes ago

Perhaps Ben, but if a Site Plan is approved and the Developer doesn’t actually build for various reasons (market conditions, a changing demographic such as drug town, crime, financing) it doesn’t mean much. Actually housing starts lead to new property tax income etc.

Ken Strauss
2 days ago

Further to John’s questions:
The “Moment of Reflection” was last included in the 009-2019 revision of the Procedural Bylaw.

The “Traditional Land Acknowledgement” was added to the Procedural Bylaw in the 085-2023 revision as a replacement for the Moment of Reflection.

I have no idea of the rationale for the substitution. Nor do I understand why a Land Acknowledgement appears to be included in all events in Victoria Hall. Perhaps Mr. Larmer can shed some light on the questions.

Nikki
Reply to  Ken Strauss
2 days ago

When I have to listen to the repetitive, long winded indigenous land acknowledgement in schools, municipal meetings etc I feel like I am being brainwashed. Research “UNDRIP”. https://www.nationalobserver.com/2023/06/21/explainer/ottawas-action-plan-enshrine-indigenous-rights-coming-heres-what-to-know

Merle Gingrich
Reply to  Nikki
2 days ago

Land acknowledgements, where did this “Woke”idea come from? Just give them back their land and be done with it

Nikki
Reply to  Merle Gingrich
2 days ago

I suspect, back in the day, the indigenous peoples did not claim to own the lands that are Canada. Rather, they were stewards of the land and its bounty. As we should be also. But we see how that has been going. As far as I know we do not even own our own properties. The Crown does.

Concerned Cobourg Resident
Reply to  Nikki
1 day ago

Who owned the land before the indigenous people? We should be acknowledging them too…

Concerned Cobourg Resident
Reply to  Merle Gingrich
1 day ago

Give them back their land? Not a chance.

Concerned Cobourg Resident
Reply to  Nikki
1 day ago

Good point! 100% brainwashing.

The fed know exactly what they are doing…. Author Joost Merloo wrote about this very very thing, mind control and brainwashing, in his 1956 book, “Rape of the Mind”. Read it for free in the archives here… :

https://ia904508.us.archive.org/21/items/joost-meerloo-rape-of-the-mind/%20Joost%20Meerloo_Rape%20of%20the%20mind.pdf

Nikki
Reply to  Concerned Cobourg Resident
22 hours ago

Oh I’m familiar with this book! Its a good one. After the past 5 years I have learned much about the numerous ways humans are brainwashed and indoctrinated by their governments, schools, medical institutions and the church. Considering a career change to “cult deprogrammer”.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/military-leaders-saw-pandemic-as-unique-opportunity-to-test-propaganda-techniques-on-canadians-forces-report-says