At the Community Protection and Economic Development Standing Committee meeting on April 3rd, there was a motion made to “get the ball rolling” on the Police request for a new building. As reported earlier, Police believe that they have outgrown their existing building on King Street and recommend a new building at a new location for approx. $34M. The Standing committee members (Mayor Cleveland, Aaron Burchat, Adam Bureau) all agreed that this would be a long term project and that it should be considered simultaneously with the possible expansion of the Force or a merger. Mayor Cleveland emphasized that he was NOT suggesting switching services to the OPP but perhaps there should be a West Northumberland or County Police Force. Further, he said his statement is intended as a communication to the Police Board that Council is interested in looking at options.
Whatever is decided, it would be over a 5 to 7 year timeframe. Not in the next year or two. But it could be gradual; some nearby townships have OPP contracts shortly coming up for renewal.
The situation is muddied by an earlier discussion on the same subject that happened in early 2023. The Police board passed a resolution that made clear that “the Cobourg Police Service Board does not support any further study on County wide policing”. Council then made a motion to the same effect. Because of that, Cobourg is not participating in the current study of County Policing being conducted for the County.
However, Councillors Bureau and Burchat were not concerned with this but did want any decision on a new building to take into account any possible expansion or merger of the Cobourg Police.
Bottom line: a re-visit to the idea of major changes to the Cobourg Police is back on the table. NOT OPP, but possibly West Northumberland or County-wide.
Resources
- Police want New Facility – 19 February 2024
- County looking at Northumberland Police Force – 3 February 2023
- Police review and other concerns – 1 March 2023
Print Article:
Reported in Northumberland News is policing for Northumberland County is to be presented at County Council with options of amalgamation, continued service by Cobourg Police or outside policing by Peterborough or Durham. With a growing population the County feels it is time to look at all options.
https://www.northumberlandnews.com/news/policing-in-northumberland-county-could-fall-to-outside-agencies-like-peterborough-or-durham/article_f7d31a5f-a867-56e2-b3ca-30333fb69c34.html?source=newsletter&utm_content=a01&utm_source=ml_nl&utm_medium=email&utm_email=015AE8956E41A5C8905C76B205897991&utm_campaign=nnhl_172963
Has the County had any conversation with either Durham or Peterborough.are either Police Service interested in expanding to service Northumberland?
I believe in the end it comes down to either OPP (already on the ground here) or the amalgamation of Pt. Hope and Cobourg policing the two communities and possibly Hamilton Township, if the Township residents want. OPP police the the remaining communities in the County
See Frenchy’s link Pete for the reporting in Northumberland News. I just reported what I read.
There will be a Cobourg Blog report on this at 1:00 pm today.
The only viable option is the OPP. They already have a presence and facilities in the area. There will be considerable capital expenditures if we choose another alternative, They already police most of Northumberland County.
When will it ever end. No other Municipality been policed by the OPP is going to go with Cobourg Police. As many have pointed out cost per capita of the Cobourg Police is outrageous when compared to OPP. There is no savings in amalgamation of even Cobourg & Port Hope. Has no one remembered all the supposed savings which were to come from Municipal amalgamation? The savings end up in the increased salaries of all public employees.
Also, the Cobourg Police Services Board has absolutely NO say in who polices a municipality. Totally in the control of Municipality. If the Police Board members do not even know that there should resign.
I am not sure if a Municipality in Ontario can claim bankruptcy like the in the US but if they can Fibourg seems to be heading that way.
Is our feeling of being unprotected by the CPS related to the force itself or to the catch and release bail system which is a product of the Federal Charter of Rights and the Provincial judicial system? Attached is a good article on this – Smart Bail Initiatives July 2023. Recommendations are on pages 10-15.
Would the OPP or a new Northumberland Police Service be an improvement for Cobourg?
https://npf-fpn.com/app/uploads/securepdfs/2023/07/NPF-Bail-Reform-Paper_PDF-Copy_EN.pdf
Why build something new & untried at huge $ cost versus the proven capabilities of the OPP who already have a building in the area. This is a dollars & cents issue!
Based on the 2021 Census, and Cobourg’s 2024 Cobourg Police Services Operating Budget, the annual cost per household is $813 ($7,434K net police budget/9,135 households).
Based on OPP links I pulled up, their average annual Municipality cost per household is $347 (includes a base household cost, plus services added by each Municipality, tailored to its specific needs).
Over the last 7 years this annual household cost has remained fairly constant, between $353 to $362 annually.
The following OPP link provides supporting information, including an excel report of all Municipalities (296) in Ontario and their actual costs over the past 7 years.
https://www.opp.ca/index.php?&lng=en&id=115&entryid=58179f628f94acf555bef561
Based on the above how can Council not open discussions with the OPP?
Back a few years ago we looked at the OPP. Two things came up that I remember …… first the cost would be for a few years and then renegotiated …. Second … The OPP would absorb our police but not pick up the civilians and we would have to fork out a severance for each person and at that time we had over 20+ civilians attached to CPS …. I guess they would not pick up the auxiliary folks either …… the OPP would also,provide CPS folks with better opportunities and specialization. Combined force with PHS would make more sense.
I have wondered the same Old Sailor. The only other thought I had was some of the comments by the Chief which are sympathetic in nature of some of the addicts I have heard when he is meeting with community. “Addicts are more peaceful then people overusing alcohol. Remember they are someone’s child.” In attending various political gatherings and speaking with an attending officer I have heard a different view from the few officers I have spoken with. “Give them an inch and they’ll take a mile. Smiles and nods when saying to an officer “In prior times they would be jailed.” Another concern I have with OPP is it is more arms length. Will they know the trouble makers in the community?
I see the Toronto Police facing critiscism by some community groups over actions and not properly supported either in the media or by the mayor whoever may be sitting these past years. The judicial system is a joke!
I dare say it would be Exactly the same as it is now – Except a whole lot cheaper. Give Cobourg Taxpayers a break – GO OPP!
From the comments made on this site, and the ‘”thumbs-up” support these comments have received, a majority of people want and would vote to instruct the Cobourg Town Council to get off their butts and start a job interview with the OPP. Council… “Earn your Pay” … “Start the Conversation”.
So Mayor Cleveland suggest a West Northumberland or County Police Service. Mayor Cleveland why cant the OPP be considered for the “County Police Service”? They already police 5 out of the seven municipalities? They already have the facilities in place? They can draw on other existing OPP units- TRU, ERT, Dive and Forensics for support.
Would new police service built from Cobourg and PT Hope police have to create these units from the ground up or would they call on the above OPP units for assistance when needed?
I also note that the Mayor’s comment that other municipalities OPP contracts are coming up for renewal. I take it from the comment, Cobourg Police will be bidding on these new contracts?
My final question to Council. Please Explain why building a new building for 34 plus million dollars and an annual budget of almost 8 million and growing; is better than going OPP with a probable annual cost of 5 million?
The Mayor knows he would be voted down in a heartbeat if he suggested going the OPP route. The police are used to getting their own way in this Town. I think it’s pretty ballsy of them to ask for a new $45 Million (cause we all know the cost will go up) when so many citizens in Town are unhappy with CPS.
Ur so right. They say 5-7 yr horizon. 7.yrs out and this could be 60 to 70 million facility in its present form. There will changes and additions to the design that will also increase the the cost.
Council is determined to burden the taxpayer with this Police ask. Where is their courage to stand up and say NO.Do they think there are bottomless pockets when it comes to the Cobourg taxpayer?
Sounds like Cobourg Police want to replace OPP as police service of choice in the 5 other municipalities in Northumberland.
I question how the CPS expects to convince these Municipalities to switch to CPS, given the current feelings and visuals on the state of safety and security in Cobourg?
Given previous comments it seems most mis-read this. It is only back open for discussion not a done deal.
Also it is my understanding that Town police do not have jurisdiction over the encampment. It is County and possibly provincial territory.
Catherine Taylor,
The property is owned by the province and just as any private property owner, they have “jurisdiction” over issues such as trespassing.
The Cobourg cops are responsible for enforcement in private property if there is a complaint.
To date, the province has not made a complaint, so nothing to enforce.
Brian , I don’t think that’s entirely accurate. The police have and are charged with the responsibility to enforce all laws on all property within the town of Cobourg regardless of whether or not there is a complaint. There does not have to be a complaint in order to enforce the law, there only has to be a law broken. For example, finding a stolen bike at Brokeside or a shopping cart from no-frills, drugs, weapons, or violence could and should warrant a charge.
That’s said I’m not disagreeing that there hasn’t been a complaint by the property owner
Where are the Police anyway I have not seen a foot patrol downtown since the weather cooled
The lady operating the Bistro where the Dutch Oven used to be could have used a cop or 2 a couple of times this week as she tackled a group of 5 or 6 Vagrants that were going through some Garbage they had gathered around 12 noon lunch hr. –on First st at her side door . throwing it every where . This never happened in the Old days
This will Kill Business .
Or the guy sitting at her side door with no pants on yesterday. I don’t know if police were even called. Police were short staffed apparently yesterday.
Brookside is Provincial property, but in The Town of Cobourg, just like County Offices in Cobourg. THEY are not self Governing and fall under Cobourg Police Services jurisdiction obviously.
I think that if we are going to look at changing the current municipal force to an amalgamated one that all options should be on the table, including having the OPP submit a bid.
i have previously been a supporter of the Cobourg Police Service but I think those days have passed. Their lack of presence, transparency and communications during this dark period in the town’s history have been quite revealing.
They are absolutely failing to rise to the challenges of the encampment and public drug use etc. Maybe it’s a leadership issue, maybe it’s a case of systemic rot. I would support some kind of external review on the force’s personnel, policies and leadership to see if positive change is even possible at this point. if it’s not then it’s time for a clean sweep.
it would take a miracle to restore my confidence in the force at present and I honestly don’t see that happening.
I agree with you completely, “their lack of presence” I’ve lived in the West end for 15 years and I’ve seen the Police patrolling this area only once around 3 AM. Thanks to the Town changing the parking regulations in the West end, it’s like a parking lot up here. Right now there are 9 cars parked along our street, all have been parked more than 12 hrs. The Town of Cobourg Bylaw 048-2023 prohibits parking on any street in Cobourg, for more than 12 hrs. BUT actually the Bylaw reads 3 hrs., the error was reported to the Town but it has not been updated. I was assured that the Bylaw officer knows what the Rule is, so where are the Bylaw officers too??? Do we have to do their jobs too?
Maybe we should revisit the leadership of the Cobourg Police. There was a lot of controversy, for good reason, when he was promoted to that position. I also believe that a good number of officers have taken “sick leave” partly, it is said, because of the Chief. But who knows and does the Police Board Care?
“The situation is muddied by an earlier discussion on the same subject that happened in early 2023. The Police board passed a resolution that made clear that “the Cobourg Police Service Board does not support any further study on County wide policing”. Council then made a motion to the same effect. Because of that, Cobourg is not participating in the current study of County Policing being conducted for the County“.
Translated: The 3 Amigos +1 Caved at the Behest of the Cobourg Police – thereby, screwing the Cobourg citizens yet again. Now Cobourg currently has no say in the re-shaping of the Police Force . And look whose not worried about it, 2 of the Amigos!
I agree with James Bisson…Once again, they are putting the cart before the horse here. Don’t even look at purchasing a building without knowing where we are headed – merger wise.
I personally feel that the Police Merger should be costed out on both going OPP and/or Northumberland and then let the citizens of Northumberland decide in a referendum vote.
New Police Station , New Pool at the CCC, New Harbour ,
Wow this Mayor Just spent close to $100 Mil
Please tell me Mr Mayor — where the $$$$$$$$$$$$ money is coming from FIRST ?????
And then who covers the Cost over runs of 20 % + as nothing around here is ever built on Budget .
How much money is spent to run Cobourg Harbour each year ?
How much money is earned from boat mooring fees each year ?
How much will it cost to rebuild the harbour walls ?
Doug,
The marina breaks even or has a small surplus ($50-75K) which is transferred to the marina reserve to fund capital expenses.
2024 Marina Capital spending is budgeted at about $215K
Per the 2024 budget, the harbour costs about $250K per year to maintain
Harbour capital sending is budgeted at $35K
Dredging, net of outside contracts and internal allocations (harbour & marina), costs about $100K per year
2024 Harbour OPS and Capital costs total about $385K
The last estimate that I know of for the major harbour repairs: East Pier, breakwater and harbour walls, is about $25M+
Doug,
Cobourg would not be the same without the Harbour. What are you meaning. Demolish the Piers and scrap the Harbour?
Lay the blame at the feet who deserve it. The Mayor is regularly defeated by the Three Amigos who I believe think our money grows on trees.
Then by all means ask the Three Amigos to answer this question or are they
in hiding
Who
are these the 3 Mayor Wanna Bees ?? I didn’t think this Council was organized enough to have sides
Where is the “checkerboard” police cruiser that was put in to service last Sept. I have yet to even see it. How much did that “toy” cost us? and now a new building too?
Sandpiper,
It is not clear to me how the New Mayor is being blamed for these.
These items have been on the table long before he got elected!
Blame them on past mayors, not Cleveland, who has already stated we should look at County wide Policing.
He knows the Old Guard go on protecting the Cobourg Police against the OPP and Cleveland is probably taking that one step at a time.
The very idea of two small towns, like Port Hope and Cobourg, having their own Police services is ludicrous, outdated and expensive.
It turns out some some downtown Condominiums are paying “extra fees” direct to the Police for protection. The one on Orange Street behind Shoppers is one example. It a joke……but not funny.
What does it cost to operate Venture 13. Some years ago, if I remember they turned a profit. What does V13 do ?
Doug,
V13 opened in mid 2018.
The renovation cost was $3,247,252, funded by:
Cobourg Cops $1,994,897
CFDC 445,000
Town 707,355
SSFC 100,000
The building is owned by the Town and is part of Northam’s commercial/industrial facility lease portfolio. The start up capital from the CFDC and Cops is amortized as “leasehold/rent” at $10/sq ft:
Cops $148,810 per year term ends in 2031
CFDC 20,250 per year term ends in 2040
2023 budgeted building operations costs is $145,541 which is recovered from the “tenants” as follows:
Cops $65,804 45%
CFDC 22,836 16%
Town 56,901 39%
The mothball cost was about $70K per year which CAO Peacock “promised” would be significantly reduced. (eliminated)
To answer your questions:
No, V13 has never made a profit
In the 5 years since opening (2018-2022), V13 has cost the Cobourg taxpayers $1,003,085 (8.87% over budget) The 2023 budget was $221,950 for a 6 year total of $1,225,035. An average of $204,172. $134,172 higher than the mothball cost
The 2024 V13 budget is $212,278 plus allocated the SWM fee(??)
No, V13 has not met its new business and job creation targets.
What does V13 do? Waste Cobourg taxpayers money.
A suggested solution:
-Retain the Cops and CDFC as tenants
-Retain the Town’s EcDev department housed at V13
-Retain the Northumberland MFG’s Association at V13
-Close V13 as an “innovation” experiment, just as Port Hope closed the Idea Hub before V13 opened
-Use the vacated space to house other Town departments such as by-law or a police satellite station.
Bravo Bryan, well articulated.
I see…correct me if I’m wrong:
The Town of Cobourg has put almost $2mil into V13 since it started. That’s a lot of money for a town our size for a business incubator?
James Bisson,
Indeed.
Perhaps that is why PH closed the Idea Hub. A money pit with no return (benefit) to the “investors” (Cobourg taxpayers). Cobourg didn’t get (hasn’t got) the lesson.
Bryan for Mayor!
There seems to be a pattern of putting in a purchase without a plan first. If they are seriously considering amalgamation of police services regionally, it seems reasonable to work out those details BEFORE building a new station? $34 mil is a big number for Cobourg to take on alone. Given the County’s track record in taking residents concerns into consideration, I would agree to anything with County until all the details are hammered out first.
OPP The saving s will be huge ask the other communities that have switched
They have all the resources and equipment and expertise to draw from when ever needed .
Lets see all the Options tabled before this Council and County make any more
costly economic decisions at our expense
Sandpiper you are so right. Unfortunately this would mean the Town surrendering another Town department to the County. I believe the the Town feels threaten by the County and will do whatever it has to maintain its relevance as a viable level of government/ entity..
Sandpiper the County do not run the OPP. Clarify what you mean please. OPP is Provincial.
The OPP can be contracted to provide policing. Either to a single municipality, multiple municipalities or if municipalities agree to upload it to the County the contract would be with them.
James “Given the County’s track record in taking residents concerns into consideration, I would agree to anything with County until all the details are hammered out first.” I would also suggest that WHEN these details are known, they are compared against other priorities e.g. a fully functioning Harbour (pier, outer wall and forget the niceties). I certainly don’t want the Travel Lift nonsense to raise its head again, just like I don’t want to spend 10s of Millions on a cop shop.
“The State is that organization in society which attempts to maintain a monopoly of the use of force and violence in a given territorial area; in particular, it is the only organization in society that obtains its revenue not by voluntary contribution or payment for services rendered but by coercion.” Murray N. Rothbard, Anatomy of the State
Wouldn’t it be cheaper to allow citizens protect themselves?
Smaller government is always better. 34 Million doesn’t sound like we are going in the right direction…
To all the tax dollar producers (tax payers) on this blog, what’s your limit on tax dollars you will pay to government services that go predominately to tax dollar consumers? Does this not bother you?
After reading the “Sunshine list”…..not really convinced that we are getting our money’s worth with the present police force and the number of high salaries being paid.Will expansion correct this situation? …Not so sure. A big expenditure of a new facility doesn’t guarantee better results either ,but will guarantee a huge budget hit. Consideration of an amalgamation seems warranted Cobourg is carrying enough debt.
Here goes a 10% homeowner tax increase for the next 7 years…Perhaps it’s time to leave Cobourg as the folks trying to run it don’t have a clue on how to run things in the “protection” area of the budget. Get rid of Venture 13 and there you have the space for the police is one idea.
It would seem reasonable to repurpose a property that the Town already has possession of rather than splurging on a new building ….like asking the County to repurpose the Golden Plough before spending on 310 Division and a foolish folly that few residents of Cobourg support. But …many of us were raised on ” making do” rather than borrowing money and acquiring debt.
There are 30 individuals on the Cobourg Police Force that are making over 100K and on the Sunshine list. That is quite a hefty sum of money and obviously does not include everyone at Cobourg Police. A lot of money for the size of the town of Cobourg.
It is. CPS cost per household is $813 annually vs $347 annual average household cost for the OPP for the 297 municipalities they patrol. Are we getting value for our dollars? We don’t know and this is why we need to a RFP from the OPP.
The Mayor should be focusing on this maybe and not going to Ottawa today to speak to the House of Commons on of all things Community Safety.
See Todays Northumberland article.
Rational,
You wrote “….to speak to the House of Commons on of all things Community Safety.”
LC addressed the FINA (Standing Committee on Finance), not the “the House of Commons”. The meeting was held in one of several meeting rooms at the House of Commons (a building)
He did speak about community safety, as well as catch and release, high food costs, affordable housing, infrastructure repair assistance and more.
I suggest you should watch his presentation and question replies before concluding that his address to the FFSC was not what he should be doing.
https://parlvu.parl.gc.ca/Harmony/en/PowerBrowser/PowerBrowserV2?fk=12651867 13:18:40 (1:18 pm) and 13:42:00
Agree, Bryan, both Mayor Cleavland and MP Laurence by collaborative question and answers shone a light on the tougher issues we as a community are facing here in Cobourg. There is little time to elaborate at the table , however, Mr. Cleveland brought forth several key concerns….a crumbling pier, food insecurity, lack of positive solution in the area of mental health as the application at present is unsuccessful, “catch and release” unaffordable housing. This is a forum to begin collaborative change…..l think a positive presentation and good use of our Mayors time in our best interest.
A citizen, like myself who has reported theft…..providing video and identification, would reasonably anticipate a communication to investigation of the crime….even if there was no conclusive outcome.
Still waiting….not getting my money’s worth and believe me l could me, l could be calling often for the nuisances we endure in the downtown
Well the situation is muddied is right! What a perfect opportunity it would have been for the town to be part of the study of county wide policing. Now what, the town is going to hire consultants to do their own study? The chief squawked the last time county wide policing was discussed and then council supported that with a motion. Now some of council is saying the police only get a new building if a merger or expansion is taken into account. Well the expansion has already occurred, 4 new cops hired this year. They can use Venture 13 until this all gets unmuddied. It will save us lots of money.
Cobourg taxpayer.
Yes a perfect opportunity. The perfect opportunity to address better transparency from CPS. Rescind anonymity for criminals in press releases.
Asking for 34 million for a new facility and seeking to police other county communities- sounds more like empire building.
I d like to hear more from CPS of how they are going to address and resolve Cobourg’ s crime and safety concerns first, before moving on tand offering their service to other Towns.
It’s certainly NOT the Police asking to expand their area. The idea came from Mayor Cleveland. Please do not spread fake news or your comments will get deleted.
John,
From your own article above…
“However, Councillors Bureau and Burchat were not concerned with this but did want any decision on a new building to take into account any possible expansion or merger of the Cobourg”
I know Adam was speaking as a Councilor here. But he is a member of the Police Services Board. And as such I take it there is discussion,maybe not public but discussion none the less by the Police Board and Police Leadership on expansion and expansion beyond the boarders of Cobourg .
Just my take… not misinformation
You are jumping to conclusions and not quoting facts. The last public statement by the Police board is that they did not want to look at County policing.
John D & Pete M,
There is a significant difference between the County/OPP taking over Cobourg’s police service and Cobourg police expanding their “territory” by taking over the police service of other municipalities.
The Cobourg cops are specifically against a County/OPP takeover. There has been no comment/statement about Cobourg police taking over the policing service of another municipality.
This is not unique to Cobourg. When the area 911 service was put up for tender, the CPSB bid on it and lost to Owen Sound.
Thank you Bryan. That s what I was trying to say.
Like Peterborough Police does for cavan- monaghan township under contract replacing rhe OPP
And in Cobourg police providing services under contract to other municipalities, means the cobourg police services board remains and creates revenue for the CPS
Pete M,
Revenue yes, but also expenses. The trick will be to be able to manage such a contract to turn a profit..