EV Charging stations on Municipal Parking Lots

Cobourg Council have been discussing the provision of chargers for electric vehicles at least since 2021 and once again it was on the Agenda at Monday’s Committee of the Whole Council meeting.  Randy Curtis of the EV Society gave a presentation and said there are vendors who would be willing to install and operate charging stations in Cobourg at no cost to the Town or taxpayer.  That’s because revenue and grants would pay for their costs.  There are details to be worked out – exactly how many (16?) and where, and which company to work with – Randy suggested an Ad Hoc Committee be formed to decide these in time for this year’s budget deliberations.  Cost consideration would be potential loss of parking revenue and managing the vendor selection process.

Randy Curtis 2018
Randy Curtis – File Photo – 2018

Randy explained why this would be a good idea:

Benefits of EV Charging Stations

  • The Government of Canada has proposed regulations that will require that at least 20 percent of new vehicles sold in Canada will be zero emission by 2026, at least 60 percent by 2030, and 100 percent by 2035.
  • It will increase Tourism by day trippers to Cobourg Beach and the CCC – ev owners plan trips using apps such as “Plug Share” to show charger availability
  • Support for high density harbour area residents living in MDU’s – over 400 Condos and Townhouses on the waterfront were built prior to mandatory charging infrastructure requirement for MDUs and cost would be high to retrofit.
  • Added support for downtown stores and restaurants

For more detail, see Randy’s Powerpoint presentation in Resources below.

Council was interested because of the zero cost but Director Brian Geerts said that an Ad Hoc Committee would not be needed since he was already working with volunteers. Council agreed and Brian will work on this and report back to Council.  The next steps would appear to be to first firm up the details then issue an RFP asking for proposals.

Resources

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Pete M
8 months ago

I encourage you to read the story of the gentleman from Winnipeg who bought an F150 Lightening. The cost to buy the vehicle and then upgrade his electrical panel and then put in a charger- the avg person cannot afford.
But what is more interesting is his trials and tribulations when he decided to leave the EV safety of his city for a road trip to Chicago

https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/man-forced-ditch-115k-ford-ev-truck-family-road-trip-chicago-biggest-scam-modern-times

Newbie
Reply to  Pete M
8 months ago

Haha. I read that article last nite! Thanks Pete M

Pete M
8 months ago

Globe and Mail article re EV fires occuring on cargo ships , as EV s shipped around the world
Think of the environmental disaster that is created if they sink or the toxic smoke being spewed into the air.
Lithium Ion batteries are not the panacea for vehicles and their impact on the environment everyone was hoping for

Pete M
8 months ago

Another interesting article on EVs. This time the impact of heat on batteries, in particular the current heat wave in U.S. southwest

Sandpiper
8 months ago

Just returned from a Road Trip EV Charging stations are a complete Waste of Time and Owners $$$ They are used as Parking spaces and the car is left for Hours while the owners sit on the Beach There is No way of retrieving the owners with out the threat of a huge Parking fine according to the Enforcement officers I asked They suggested a starting Fine of $500 and a follow up or 2nd fine of $500 if the car is not removed with in 1 hr of issuance of the 1 st fine . They also insisted on having the ability Electronically to check the Licence Plate number for Validity and Active status as many visiting do not have valid plates on their cars making collection and enforcement impossible The Best location we saw that was properly used was at Malls , and Food / Restaurants where the public went in to shop or a meal and back in the hour

Mark
Reply to  Sandpiper
8 months ago

They should do what Tesla does , why make it complicated with have a bylaw officer give out tickets

With Tesla , you are charge idle fee if you don’t move your car once it is charged
https://www.tesla.com/en_ca/support/charging/supercharger/idle-fee#:~:text=For%20every%20additional%20minute%20a,station%20is%20at%20100%25%20capacity.
like I said people in Cobourg like to live in the dark ages

JimT
Reply to  Wally Keeler
9 months ago

Unsold electric vehicles are piling up – people like the idea but are not buying them
To continue reading this article you must be a globeandmail.com subscriber.

Last edited 9 months ago by JimT
Judy
Reply to  Wally Keeler
8 months ago

The article on unsold vehicles comes from the US and doesn’t take into account the 68% of EV’s that are Teslas which don’t have dealerships to pile up on. Tesla is the most popular vehicle. Furthermore there is still a waiting list for most EV’s in Canada as many people caan tell you so ship any unused vehicles here!

Mark
9 months ago

I bet most the people here would said the same thing a 100 hundred years when gas automobiles where first being built
What is wrong with the horse that we are now ?
As usually a lot of people in Cobourg are living in the past 😉

Last edited 9 months ago by Mark
Pete M
Reply to  Mark
9 months ago

-A horse was good for 20 to 30 miles a day.
-the new iron horse (car) allowed people to travel that and then some.
-My ICE vehicle allows me to travel to Ottawa and back in 6 hrs (600 +kms) with one stop of about 8-10 mins to gas up on the way back.
-EV hoping a full charge will get me to Ottawa but closely watching my range and charge. Definitely needing a charge on the way back. So hoping to find an available charger. Charging for 45 mins if level 3 more if not.
-trip by gas 6 hrs- anxiety free
-trip by EV 7 to 8 hrs with anxiety if charger available.
-Moving from horse to car gave people greater freedom and independence.
-Moving from gas to EV is a step back-less range, longer refill/recharge times, and anxiety over being able to re-charge.

And remember the move from horse to automobile didn’t take millions in govt subsidies and threats and deadlines to make to move from horse to auto.

cornbread
Reply to  Pete M
8 months ago

Now try the same trip with the Heater On or the Air Conditioner on. The EV will need Two Charges…ie: More Time & Worry.

Pete M
Reply to  cornbread
8 months ago

So True Cornbread,

I came across a story at CBC News. The EV owner speaks to that exactly.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/first-person-caroline-fric-electric-vehicle-charging-anxiety-1.6902397

Bryan
Reply to  cornbread
8 months ago

Cornbread,

There are several published articles about long road trips in an EV. Quite a challenge.

Michigan to Colorado 1300 miles in a Ford F-150 Lightning
https://www.torquenews.com/14093/what-its-road-trip-and-charge-ford-f-150-lightning-cross-country#google_vignette

Ford F150 Lightning towing a trailer
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/ford-f150-lightning-electric-truck-towing-test/

Motortrend Ford F150 Lightning review
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-platinum-range-max-charging-test-review/

Are you ready for the brave new world?

Sandpiper
Reply to  Mark
8 months ago

No not in the Past just Real time EVs do have a place in the world but their obvious limitations
pose obstacles for many especially in more rural communities –Cobourg being one of them .
as dose
Cost , Local access to fast repair , driving distance s , time to refuel / charge , short battery life
10 yrs where a gas engine can sit for ever rarely used . Cold climate ,

Pete M
9 months ago

This from the Ford website

Only the 80-amp Ford Charge Station Pro can unlock the full potential of your F-150® Lightning®.

Looks like at lot of electrician are going to benefit from people upgrading their 100 amp to 200 amp or more service if they wish to charge from home.

And yes ford has a 30 amp cable that plugs into a home outlet. Be prepared to have it plugged in all night to charge fully for next day

And where is the discussion re lithium batteries and the associated fire hazards. Remember the pics from Todays Northumberland and the e bike lithium battery fire. Now image and EV in a driveway or even worst inside a garage?

“Experts say EV fires can take hours, rather than minutes, to extinguish.”

Gerinator
9 months ago

These benefits bullets are bogus. How about the increased management of the EV charging stations by Cobourg (don’t know which dept); lost parking revenue and the job of finding corp sponsors for these charging units. Will there have to be charging stations made available – yes. These should be funded by the businesses that BELIEVE they will increase their revenue by offering charging outlets.

steve lapp
9 months ago

The ongoing change to electric passenger vehicles is hard for some people to accept and they unfortunately have not found the credible and substantial number of reports on EVs that would allow them to better understand the reasons that EVs will be about 14,000,000 of approximately 80,000,000 new production vehicles worldwide for 2023.

For similar performing vehicles, EV total ownership life cycle costs are lower than gasoline powered vehicles, battery life is not an issue, and battery material supply is adequate and growing. EVs do not solve all our problems, but they do reduce GHG emissions, even on grids with coal and natural gas as generation fuels. As for where the electricity will come from, the IESO, OPA, OEB have produced many reports on the amount of new zero carbon generation required and how we get there, it is entirely feasible.

We are going to have more EVs because even large automakers support addressing climate change.

cornbread
Reply to  steve lapp
9 months ago

Take away all the EV Government Subsidies concerning just autos (like the recent billions to battery mfg) and no person in their rright mind would buy an electric vehicle.

Bill Thompson
Reply to  cornbread
6 months ago

There doesn’t appear to be much mention publicly re the expected “normal” LIFE span / COST /AVAILABILITY of replacement of different model requirements and locations country wide.

Newbie
Reply to  steve lapp
9 months ago

Steve Lapp:
“…is hard for some people to accept.”

Absolutely! With all due respect, I do not think you understand MANY people cannot afford even $50K. One of many scenarios: single mom. 2 kids. Rent is $2,300, plus utilities. Works full time. Currently drives 2007 gas powered given to her. No credit. Questions: how will she get to work, pickup kids from school, groceries, etc. without a vehicle? Some people are out of touch with the realities many others live, especially during these difficult times financially. Speaking in socioeconomic terms: Mandating people to own a vehicle, they cannot afford—will cause hardships and further polarization within our society. People are losing their ability to critically think.

These are SIGNIFICANT concerns/ questions, consistently left out of the “climate change conversations”.

Judy
Reply to  steve lapp
8 months ago

Excellent factual response.

Kenn
9 months ago

Most people with a brain know that the lofty transition targets for elimination/ reduction of vehicle emissions are totally unrealistic for Canada, US, all countries in Europe etc.etc.
We can make vehicles powered by electricity, hydrogen and other substitutes for fossil fuels.
However, we cannot put in place the logistics to enable these fuel volumes to satisfy the demand, and support the substitution target dates, the politicians have set to appease the masses. None of the above countries have sufficient electricity production or hydrogen etc. production to even satisfy a small percentage of their target volumes.

Judy
Reply to  Kenn
8 months ago
Newbie
Reply to  Judy
8 months ago

Judy,

I read an interesting article in Today’s Northumberland this week. In particular, your ‘upset’ at not having a say in the Strategic Plan. I find that rather contrary, considering you do not care for the opinions or input of others. Remember? Your comment to me, in John’s latter blog article? Your comment directed at me, was rudely and unprofessionally dismissive : “No one cares about your point of view”

Wally Keeler
9 months ago

https://archive.li/eGLOD#selection-897.0-1009.129
G
ermany’s three big carmakers have cut their European production by a fifth compared with pre-pandemic levels, amid competition from Chinese rivals and falling demand for electric vehicles.

cornbread
9 months ago

Let the Vendors that Curtis is representing buy their own property and pay the utility companies for the extra infrastructure & power they will require for their business…Just like any other service company would have to do.

Bryan
Reply to  cornbread
9 months ago

Cornbread,
In a similar vain, lease space from the Town at a rate equal to the lost parking revenue (or more), pay for the utility infrastructure installation, electricity, maintenance and snow clearing.

Last edited 9 months ago by Bryan
Ken Strauss
Reply to  Bryan
9 months ago

And don’t agree to 20-year leases (Memorial Arena and solar panels on the roof as one example of previous mistakes) that will control the future use of the property!

cornbread
Reply to  Bryan
9 months ago

Judging from previous experiences with the town, the town does not have the smarts to deal with this sort of deal. Let the electric sellers do business on their invested dime. Buy land, pay for services, pay for paving etc. Keep it simple for the town…that works.

Kathleen
9 months ago

This is ever evolving technology. First clunky EV stations, then batteries that are more bio-degradable, then hydrogen powered vehicles. Remember the 8 Track Stereo and Beta?

Beachwalker
9 months ago

I drove along Elgin st yesterday, from Brook rd to Canadian Tire. I counted 8 Teslas along the way. Those of you who think EV’s are a long way off you may want to give your heads a wobble. Prices are coming down, not reasonable yet, but they are. There were also 3 vehicles charging in the CT parking lot. The future is now!

Newbie
Reply to  Beachwalker
9 months ago

$84K is the average for EV’s in Canada. After giving my head a wobble; the substantial cost needs to considerably come down in order to reach the aggressive 2035 goal. If EV’s are not affordable to EVERYONE by that date—then what? Think of that bigger picture. Whoa up, the future is Not Now.

Last edited 9 months ago by Newbie
Beachwalker
Reply to  Newbie
9 months ago

You can purchase an EV for $50k. You can also purchase a gas powered car for $50k.

Dave
Reply to  Beachwalker
9 months ago

Could it be you get what you pay for? Some of the electric batteries only take so many charges then they are kaput. 50K still ain’t cheap and if you want a better one to ensure the life of battery which are very expensive to replace a more expensive price tag is necessary.

Newbie
Reply to  Beachwalker
9 months ago

With all due respect, I do not think you understand MANY people cannot afford even $50K. One of many scenarios: single mom. 2 kids. Rent is $2,300, plus utilities. Works full time. Currently drives 2007 gas powered given to her. No credit. Questions: how will she get to work, pickup kids from school, groceries, etc. without a vehicle? Some people are out of touch with the realities many others live, especially during these difficult times financially. Speaking in socioeconomic terms: Mandating people to own a vehicle, they cannot afford—will cause hardships and further polarization within our society. People are losing their ability to critically think. DISCLOSURE: comments based objectively, in reality, not conspiratorial,
not as an “anti climate change believer”.

These are SIGNIFICANT concerns/ questions, consistently left out of the “climate change conversations”.

Last edited 9 months ago by Newbie
Pete M
Reply to  Beachwalker
9 months ago

So what about the majority who dont have 50k for an ev. Those working at $17-$25 per hr jobs. They need cheap reliable vehicles to get back an forth to work. A decent used ICE vehicle can meet their needs for under $13000.

Until EV’ s can meet the need of that$17-$25 hr wage , people see EVs as the vehicle of virtue signalling elites

Also many see ICE vehicles as freedom- pull into the numerous gas stations- fill and go. For EV owners they have to use from the quote above “ev owners plan trips using apps such as “Plug Share” to show charger availability”. Wheres the freedom? I see anxiety of finding an EV charger thats working and then waiting an hr to complete my charge before continuing on my journey?

Not something that meets the needs of the masses to comfortably facilitate long road trips. Great for in town short trips. Still not proven techology

Twopenniesworth
9 months ago

The usual misery guts moaning costs etc…get over yourselves..EV’s are here to stay..if you
don’t need to use one many others do…maybe visitors coming to see you..get them installed
while someone else pays for them…charge them parking spot rental for the privilege of taking
a parking place in the lot..let Cobourg be ahead of the curve instead of behind it…

Bill Thompson
Reply to  Twopenniesworth
9 months ago

Shades of the Edsel..! …🥴

Sandpiper
9 months ago

EV s have been around for 20 +years just costly to acquire , expensive to maintain , battery life is always uncertain and very expensive to replace and there is more and more concern about the Failing Power Grid into the future , Everyone I know here in Cobourg that has purchased an EV has installed a charging station at their own home and the Condos down at the water front do have charging stations in the underground parking garages .
AND lets all stop relying on Cobourg’s Beach as the main reason for every thing That alone is a Very Costly Venture for the Cobourg Tax Payers and residents to keep contributing to . We Can’t even afford Life Guards this year and there is only a 3 month Beach weather time frame here in Ont. The rest of the year its used by Locals and fewer in the winter when they go south to the Warmer Beaches.

marya
Reply to  Sandpiper
9 months ago

Not all; I wish that our condos by the waterfront had 🚉 in the underground garage for those who want EVs.

Gerry
Reply to  marya
9 months ago

We can’t get one installed at our waterfront condo.

Sandpiper
Reply to  marya
9 months ago

Ask your management Co & Board of Directors simple. If you own a private garage or freehold town house its your cost your choice EV s are expensive to Own maintain
and and and not everyone has to pay for your choice

marya
Reply to  Sandpiper
9 months ago

The requests have been denied over many years. Public or off-site charging stations only.

Kevin
Reply to  marya
9 months ago

You can ask and they can say no. Eventually, I expect, they will not be able to say no. With the plan to have no new gas powered cars by 2035, saying no to charging stations is like saying no to cars. Unacceptable to many.

Ken Strauss
Reply to  Kevin
9 months ago

Perhaps we’ll elect a rational government prior to 2035.

Kevin
Reply to  marya
9 months ago

Have the requests been denied with a copy of the report/opinion of the professional?
Electric Vehicle Charging Systems Guide (condoauthorityontario.ca)

marya
Reply to  Kevin
9 months ago

Thanks, Kevin, for the detailed info and the involvement of the Condominium Authority of Ontario. We gave up after our written requests were rejected. Time to try again.

cornbread
9 months ago

How about ESSO putting in gasoline pumps on town property. This deal is like the lights fiasco about 20 years ago.

Just a thought
9 months ago

This could be a win for Cobourg. In order to use the charging stations where I work, I have to have a parking pass or I risk getting a ticket. So, there is no risk of losing that revenue as long as council is smart here. Additionally, a contract with the company awarded the right to equip the chargers for a percentage on the charging fees collected could be another revenue opportunity.

I’m not sure why there is so much disdain for affluence. Find ways to extract their money! Provide some value.

I agree – the electrical grid needs work but EVs are here and do we really want to be way behind the curve on yet another issue?

Newbie
Reply to  Just a thought
9 months ago

No disdain for affluence was stated, or inferred. Facts only. Majority of people cannot afford Electric Vehicles.

Gerry
Reply to  Newbie
9 months ago

My dad couldn’t afford to purchase his first used car in Canada until the early 60s. So times move on, and what seems odd today becomes normal tomorrow.

Cobourg taxpayer
9 months ago

Nothing is zero cost! The costs are lost parking spots of which Cobourg already has too few of. Does this mean if there is an ev being charged in a public parking lot they only pay for charging not taking up a spot? If yes then lost revenue from parking. The grants being referred to are likely government grants which is our tax money so don’t lead the taxpayer to believe there is no cost. Also the constant brownouts occurring in Cobourg lead me to believe there are electrical distribution issues. Let’s solve that first instead of adding more to the grid. Hello LUCI????

Newbie
9 months ago

Our government is pushing to make car owners transition to electric vehicles—100% by 2035. Not very realistic, considering the high prices that threaten to make that out of reach for many Canadians.

Unless the prices become more feasible for the average consumer, it might not be a realistic “proposed requirement”. How many citizens of Cobourg own an electric vehicle? Or are we only thinking of the affluent citizens and affluent tourists to our town? Perhaps these facts should also be examined. No costs to taxpayers? I read 3 potential costs above—not including future maintenance of these charging stations.

Last edited 9 months ago by Newbie
NAI
Reply to  Newbie
9 months ago

……not to bring in tinfoil hat theories, but there are a bunch of food for thought papers on the Environment and Climate Change Canada website talking about an overall reduction in personal motor vehicles being needed to attain climate change goals, and one ‘incentive’ to reducing the number of vehicles is to make “ownership not a choice but an ideal that is no longer affordable” (paraphrased). If I find that particular report, I’ll post it here.

We need EV charging. No argument. Our electrical system provider needs to identify what they can support first and we go from there. No sense overburdened a strained grid.

Newbie
Reply to  NAI
9 months ago

Yes. ”…ownership not a choice but an ideal that is no longer affordable…” (paraphrase)
“proposed REGULATIONS”, as stated above by Randy Curtis.

Last edited 9 months ago by Newbie
marya
9 months ago

Such a lofty statement that there will be no cost to the Town and Taxpayers. Understandably, when “details are worked out” there will be fees in relation to charging stations as evidenced elsewhere in Ontario and throughout Canada.