At the next Committee of the Whole Council meeting (on Monday October 4), the Agenda shows that Council will be asked to approve the award of a contract to supply and install Adult Fitness equipment – but the location would not be per the original request. In Keith Oliver’s original requests in 2016 and then 2019, he suggested it be in Victoria Park and close to the boardwalk at its East end. But the report from Staff states that at the Parks and Recreation Committee, “the general consensus was that the Adult Fitness Park not be placed in Victoria Park”. So they are suggesting that it “be placed at the Cobourg Community Centre, or at Peter Delanty Park”. The cost would be less than $35K and covered by $10K approved for the 2021 budget and $25K from a grant already approved by the Federal Government.
Not all Councillors agree with the idea (at the last vote in February 2020, Nicole Beatty and Brian Darling voted against) – but the project was included in the Waterfront Master plan and this was approved by Council. I’d think that if it’s in the Waterfront Master Plan, that seems to preclude the CCC and Peter Delanty Park. And it’s not a surprise that Keith Oliver is not happy with the location change.
The winning bidder is Active Fit Playground Equipment – see Staff report for details.
Image below is of installation in Peterborough
The “Fitness Park” was always intended to be for seniors who often walk along the path adjacent to Victoria Park so a location at the CCC or Peter Delanty Park would be contrary to this. Keith tells me that a condition of the Federal Grant was that a majority of applicants must be seniors and the grant application specifically mentions the Victoria Park location (see excerpt from application below). Staff are following direction given to them (that’s good) but the “direction” seems to have been misconstrued. Maybe this time around, Council can provide fresh and crystal clear direction. Keith is hoping a discussion with Deputy Director Behan before the Council meeting will resolve his concerns.
Links
- Staff report and recommendation
- A Tour of Peterborough’s Installation
- Description of Project in Grant application
Reports in Cobourg News Blog
- Adult Fitness Park gets Council Support – 2 February 2020
- Keith Oliver wins support for Outdoor Fitness Park – 11 June 2019
- Coverdale Park officially renamed Delanty park – 28 July 2018
Addendum – Oct 4, 2021
At tonight’s Committee of the Whole (CoW) meeting, Council heard that the Parks and Recreation Advisory Committee favoured the Cobourg Community Centre as the location because it would be easier for CCC staff to provide programs. Councillor Chorley also said that it was expected that there would be delegations at next Monday’s Regular Council meeting when this matter would be finally decided. Councillor Darling said that he expected the novelty to wear off but that if it were to go ahead, the CCC location would be best. He also speculated that Hockey players might use the equipment to warm up. There was no discussion of the original intent that it was intended for seniors (and in fact a strong part of the grant application), nor of its original location in Victoria Park nor of its inclusion in the Waterfront master plan. The vote was 6-1 with Councillor Beatty against. Anyone objecting (or supporting) should now make their thoughts known to Councillors before next Monday. Their contact emails and phone numbers are here.
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For those who are still interested, I will be a Delegate to the Cobourg Regular Council Meeting tonight, Oct 12 on the subject of a recommendation by Dept of Community Services that the Town purchase 4 specific pieces of outdoor exercise equipment.
The gist of my remarks will be a) what’s the rush? since the Town has until March 30 to spend the Federal grant funds, for the equipment and b) regarding 3 of the 4 pirces, there are much better choices out there, some which are less expensive and safer to use.
The preceding comments present a missundersanding of the Adult Outdoor Fitness Park (AOFP) and the process to date.
It began in 2018 with a petition in favour signed by 1038 Cobourg citizens. An Advisory Committee forwarded the project to Council who directed Community Services to work with a volunteer Fitness Park Working Group (FPWG) and apply for Federal Funds.
An application for a 25,000 grant was put together in 11 days and was successful
The FPWG was made up of 5 individuals including a retired geriatric nurse; an old geezer (me) with arthritis, a bad knee and construction experience; a working physical trainer; a physiotherapist and a 70 year old active in local sports.
We visited 11 parks from Tweed to Guelph to Niagra-on-the Lake, tried out 5 different makes of equipment, interviewed 7 parks managers and wrote a 95 page report. We were convinced that with proper promotion, location and a majority of the cost from private sources, an AOFP would be of great benefit to all of Cobourg. Cobourg has a well earned reputation for doing things right.
In addition to the 35,000 dollars we have a 25,000 dollar conditional donation from private sources toward purchasing more challenging equipment. This would constitute a second phase in the final development of the park. A retractable sun roof to be used during the summer is part of the final concept.
There is much more!
The FPWG s convinced that an AOFP at the proper location along with its proper promotion, will be a success to the benefit of all in Cobourg.
It was my understanding that you solicited signatures downtown on weekends and at the Farmer’s Market. Keith, is that correct? How do you know that they were Cobourg residents? How many were seniors? How many said that they would actually use the proposed fitness centre? How often? Were they given information regarding expected construction and maintenance costs prior to signing your petition?
Ken
My post said “Cobourg citizens”! How much more do you need to know in that regard? Several from out of town said they were not surprised that this project might happen in Cobourg, referring to Cobourg’s reputation for doing things well. The signatures represented all age groups and physical conditions.
You often criticize costs without any acknowledgement of associated benefits. I believe you’ve done so in the past with regard to the 26 million dollar Community Centre which has produced huge benefits for Cobourg dispite it’s deficit which is declining as it expands its programs.
Working toward real progress in improving the quality-of-life for all involves encouraging new habits, routines, becoming more physically active. That is what the Fitness Park is all about. Our recommendation is based on informed research by people who have experience, including 2 physiotherapists and 7 parks managers.
I have offered before and do so again to show you or anyone else our 95+ page Report on the value of a well designed Fitness Park in Cobourg.
Your post, to which I am replying, reminds me of the definition of nit-picking which is “… Looking for small or unimportant errors or faults, especially in order to criticize unnecessarily.”
Have a good day!
Keith, thank you for confirming that your petition did not distinguish between Cobourg residents and others and that your supporters were not informed of the estimated full-life costs of the fitness centre, were not asked about their frequency of usage nor were they asked other pertinent questions.
I criticized the costs because you have only cited benefits without disclosure of most of the costs. Based on the numerous postings here, a miniscule fraction of our residents will ever use the proposed fitness centre and will get no benefit whatsoever. Several mentioned that the Port Hope and other similar facilities are little used. Cobourg’s previous outdoor exercise centre was little used and was eventually dismantled. These observations seem at odds with the opinions of your 9 experts and 95+ page report. Why the difference?
Ken
This exchange between us s the reason that so few who appreciate and read John’s posts read this comment section.
I said the petition involved Cobourg “citizens,” you questioned whether “residents” were involved. Really?
If you or anyone else truly wants to know the facts behind the proposal to create a popular and successful Adult Outdoor Fitness Park at Victoria Beach based on the work and experience of the Fitness Park Working Group (FPWG), and as recorded in the Group’s Oct 15, 2019 95+ page Report … call me a 905-375-8540. Wear a mask, meet together on my outdoor patio, I’ll supply a beer or two, and hopefully we can have a productive conversation.
Otherwise I’m out of here!
Keith, I have absolutely no interest in wading through 95+ pages of marketing material. Why not succinctly justify your enthusiasm versus the lack of any apparent interest in your outdoor fitness boondoggle?
Ken
I have offered you two versions of the Adult Outdoor Fitness Park’s Working Group Report issued October 2019. The first is the Executive Summary I posted here on Oct 6 at 10:18 pm. The second is the full Report itself.
As my wonderful mother, a real Prairie Girl used to say … “Ignorance is bliss.”
Be happy! …Take care!
Keith, the consensus is that an outdoor fitness park is useless yet you persist in claiming that it is needed. Why?
I would be happier if the adult fitness park had been rejected as soon as suggested rather than hanging around like a bad smell.
Ken
You referred to a consensus … what “consensus” are you talking about? The nit-pickers (see my definition in my post of Oct 8 at 7:52 am) who inhabit this site and degrade it by continually criticizing every thing without offering an alternative?
Within four week ends myself and my 79 year old frirnd, produced a petition signed by 1038 Cobourg residents in favour.
In your mind does that not count?
The problems that this Cobourg of ours faces is critical to it’s future. The very least you and I and others can do to help is to have a frank, informed and respectful conversation about important issues.
Want to give it a try?
Mr. Oliver In your Oct 8th post you said “I’m out of here” – direct quote. Yet you are still here. ??
Rationale
Good question! I’m involved with 3 other projects but it’s important since a number on this site are so negative and missinformed.
By the count this blog.is still being read and I think it’s still important that the good and informed work of the Adult Outdoor Fitness Park Working Group be known.
Yesterday, Oct 9, we revisited the fitness parks at Tweed and Peterborough to see how some of the best equipment we recommend purchasing are holding up after three years of use.
We had to wait while three middle-aged women finished using some of the pieces. Every thing was fine. Tweed had built a roof over its 2,580 sq ft.installation and by the foot prints and mud in some places it was being well used. Tweed has a population of 6,000.
Thanks for the question!
The “consensus” is based on comments here plus conversations with a number of friends. Few here and no friend said that they would use your proposed equipment.
I doubt that your “1068 Cobourg residents” were aware of the proposed ugliness and disruption to Victoria Park nor the ongoing maintenance costs.
The main problems facing Cobourg are growth plus deteriorating infrastructure and the attendant tax increases required. The problem is exacerbated by our Council’s willingness to accede to unjustified requests such as for an outdoor fitness centre.
Ken
Not sure if you clearly understand but action to date indicates that Council will pay only 10 to 15 percent of the total cost of what will become a valuable asset and add to the many interesting experiences one can have at the beach.
Experience by others indicates annual maintenance will be close to zero and Parks Department will have less grass to cut.
Really? There are no plans for snow removal? There are no plans for training/assistance in using the equipment? There will never be injuries and resulting lawsuits? There is no need to remove weeds from beneath the equipment? There is no need to maintain any of the equipment?
Ken
All aspects of having an Adult Outdoor Fitness Park at Victoria Beach have been covered in the 95+ page citizen based FPWG report of mid-October 2019 which you have declined my offer to see but which, I’m embaroused to say, does not include the cost of removing weeds off a concrete base. Thank you!
The FPWG had not considered the great shame it might have been subjected to had it not brought up the issue of how to deal with and.include the expense of dealing with the growth of weeds on the concrete base that it and others have recommended for a Fitness Park in Cobourg.
Again … thank-you!
Please watch or phone in to my delegation of to Town Council on Tuesday the 12th
Take care!
“embaroused”
embarrassed? or aroused? or?
Not at Keith’s age.
Great sarcasm, Keith! Thanks for the correction. I thought that you had planned an environmentally responsible permeable surface that could be easily removed with the rest of the unused equipment rather than a concrete pad with its attendant CO2 production. You completely ignored my questions regarding the cost of snow removal, training and assistance in using the equipment, injuries and resulting lawsuits, equipment maintenance, etc.
Ken
All of your questions have been dealt with in the 96+ page FPWG “State of the Project Report” which you have declined my offer to see.
This conversation is getting rediculous.
Take care!
Ken
Most parks including the many in Toronto (approximately 30 with more being added each year) and Montreal (about 20) shut down in the winter despite the fact that some of the best functioning are designed and manufactured in Minisota.
The Town training and offering assistance to those using the equipment brings up the issue of liability if things go wrong.
Signage as to how to use the equipment is where a brand called PlayWorld excells and can be seen and tried at Beavermead Park on the South West corner of Peterborough.
There is virtually no maintenance. Equipment tried out by our fitness trainer at Quidi Vidi, a district of St John’s Newfoundland, was 15 years old. Only problem was that the colour had faded.
Any more questions?
So, Keith, you believe that the town can avoid liability issues by providing no support or training and that everyone can figure out the best usage without help? Is that the approach with the equipment in private gyms? Can you guess why not?
It may be instructive to carefully read the discussion at https://solowaywright.com/news/playground-accident-lawsuit/
The fact that 15-year old equipment is still functional indicates nothing about the cost of maintenance that had been required over the years.
Ken
Thanks for the referrnce to the paper on liability by Soloway Wright in Kingston. While it only refers to children’s play areas it explains “negligence” and “duty of care” and actions our town can take, and appears to be taking, to limit liability.
Our Parks Dept examines all playground equipment once a month. Our early enquiries about Cobourg Liabity Insurance indicated that the premium would not be increased because of an Adult Outdoor Fitness Park.
With the concern you have expressed about risk and the fact that 28,000 children are injured each year in Canadian play parks, I expect you get on your white horse and lead a campaign to have all children’s play parks in Cobourg shut down, equipment sold for scrap, a possible source of much needed income for the Town.
That is an excellent suggestion, Keith. I believe that the town did scrap fully serviceable playground equipment a few years ago in order to comply with the Canadian Playground Safety Standard CAN/CSA-Z614-14.
More seriously, you didn’t respond to how the fact that 15-year old equipment is still functional proves that there is no cost for maintenance.
Keith, you may want to reconsider your assertion that there would be no costs for maintenance. According to https://ownplayground.com/how-often-should-playground-equipment-be-replaced/
Agree with you about ongoing costs. Apart from all the cost aspects I have to say that it looks pretty ugly and spoils the sight lines to the lake from within the park. How does something like that fit in with the park being in a heritage area which I assume it is?
Apologies but that was meant to be a reply to Bryan and not a new post
I never understood how this got the go ahead in the first place and why the Town supported it with $10,000. I understand that the $25,000 grant came from New Horizons for Seniors program. I have experience of that program and it will be interesting to see how any change of scope or even cancellation squares with the program objectives. I guess the Town (I assume it was the Town who made the grant application) already has the money and it probably has to be spent by March next year. By the way, has anybody noticed the excellent facility that is already in the park which provides healthy outdoor exercise. It’s called the Cobourg Lawn Bowling club.
Bill A.
I too have concerns with this project and understanding how it it is up for approval. The comments on this site, while biased perhaps, give a reasonable representation that the project will not be used and is not needed.
The cost is said to be $35K, of which $25K is funded by a grant. Based on JD’s “picture” I have difficulty believing that the units can be purchased and installed for this price. I would believe $35K just to purchase the units. Further, there is no indication of the ongoing annual costs of this project, maintenance, insurance, snow clearing. Staff is also proposing having (hiring??) fitness staff to help people use the facilities. Once again, no cost information.
Council needs to say NO.
Agreed. Typical with this Staff, their financial proposals often lack life-cycle costing as Bryan highlights. FYI – in reviewing the new proposed org and recommendations there is a position ‘Program Support Financial Analyst’ that will develop business case analysis of specific initiatives. Hopefully this individual can get it right.
The LBC mentioned above will be used during the season far more than this exercise area for seniors.
In all the years that I have lived in Cobourg, this is the most useless idea I have ever seen proposed by the town.
How long have you lived here?🙂
For many years.
Another stupid waste of taxpayer dollars. Most active seniors that care about exercise have already figured out how to do it. We join local facilities or take a brisk walk or bike ride along our beautiful waterfront.
Spend that 35k on something more worthwhile. Maybe a few benches and flowers on our sad pier, more garbage cans, perhaps fix the boardwalk that has nails popping, waiting for some senior to trip on while they take that brisk walk!
Yeah, really. I should ride my mountain bike to the park
in order to take in some exercise? Seriously?
I agree. The gazebo down on the boardwalk should be repaired in spots and painted. It is such an eyesore. Maybe plant some trees in Victoria Park for the next generation of families.
I’m not opposed to the idea of an adult fitness park and I don’t really have a preference where it’s located.
I’m just trying to figure out how something comparable to the park depicted in the photo gets built for $35K.
I think this is a waste of money and I also feel the CCC location is a bad idea. I am not going to drive to the CCC so I can use it.
I remember the original equipment in James Cockburn Park, every time I drove past I noticed no one ever used it, it sat there forlorn, unused, until it seemed to rot away and become dangerous. We have one here in Sidney in a green space next to the library and opposite the busy senior centre. Again, in the many many times I have been passed the site there has only been one occasion where I saw it in use. I predict the one proposed for Cobourg will be as lonely and unused as the two I have mentioned. Save the money and add a useful feature for seniors at the current centre. Ask them what they want. Has there been much consultation with the local seniors, I remember them as being a vocal, informed group when I worked with them in the early 2000’s.
The adult fitness equipment in Port Hope on Cavan Street is only ever used by children who use it as a jungle gym. I have never seen it used by adults.
I must say I enjoy using it whenever I walk by the equipment in Port Hope.
I used the equipment last week while giving my son a tour of Port Hope
There was adult fitness equipment located in James Cockburn Park/Cobourg Conservation Area and it all sat unused and eventually removed. We aren’t talking all that long ago either. I’m thinking it was still there in the early 2000s.
What good is a “fitness park” if you have to drive in your car to get to it?
I guess you havent seen people drive around the parking lot numerous times at the Ymca parking lot looking for a spot close to the front doors lol
Waste of money. CCC is too far from downtown. Who will use it in the winter for almost 5 months. If they are used in winter town employees will have to shovel the snow to keep them operational. What happens if a machine breaks and a senior falls off and gets hurt. Do they sue the town. Many questions to be answered. Agree with Jim T and Ahewson on this issue.
I have some of the same questions. Every piece of that equipment appears to require a billboard-sized set of instructions to properly use it with nobody there to instruct or spot. I’m not sure a “use at own risk” sign would cut it if and when someone hurts themselves on it.
Matt, we may have to hire an instructor to show the seniors how to use the machines.
No matter where the fitness park is located, some people will be able to walk but others will have to drive. It can’t be walkable for everyone.
…which would imply that it should be put only in a high-traffic spot where there are lots of passers-by to make use of it, if it must be built at all.
Exactly.
Peace Park might be an ideal situation. It’s part of the waterfront. A creek runs through it. It is along the Waterfront Trail. The number of residents are currently increasing in that hood and Peace Park is expected to reach up to King Street. There is plenty of room for such a pad. It is quiet and serene, whereas, in Victoria Park it will be in the midst of frolicking screaming children bloated with excitement, teens and young people doing the volleyball scene, and lots of day trippers. Placing it in Peace Park will provide the quietude and very natural environment to be able to concentrate on the exercise without distractions. It also has the advantage of being sheltered from blustery weather.
Seniors want to avoid being where the action and activity are? Really?
I never made that assertion Jimmy T.
Well that’s the way to kill a project like this, put it purposely in an area where it will be underused!. Wait a couple of years and then get plaudits for donating it to charity.
The grant specifically states location and use, this new location fulfils neither. Talk about Staff not following directions – or maybe the unseen hands told them to do it this way.
Ben, regardless of location I suspect that it would be very little used. How many want to exercise in public, holding cold metal bars while standing in snow? Would you use it?
It is far better to have an unused eyesore, awaiting demolition, at the CCC than in a downtown park. Even better, don’t build it anywhere!
You could add at least another 30 to 60 days of hot and humid weather that no one would be using it either.
Too true, really. I had lots of “activity” I needed to get done this summer right here in the yard and gardens, but it was just too damn hot, so it didn’t get done.
I would use it and know of others who would too. Seniors who walk everyday along the boardwalk.
How many seniors who walk along the boardwalk would really use the equipment. Who will use it on hot days and working on equipment in direct sunlight will tire people out. Is there any shade over the equipment?
Regardless of staff recommendation council can direct them to change the location in the end it’s their decision. Seems to be a lot of issues out of Parks and Rec, maybe it’s time for a qualified director. Hopefully council finally allows the position to be funded instead of putting off the hiring.
This has been a bad idea from the beginning. It will never be utilized to warrant the money.
I would rather subsidize fitness programs for seniors at locations that already exist such as the ccc and ymca
Excellent suggestion!
I fully support all types of execise,especially for seniors. I also applaud Keith for all the work done to to get a project that he believes in off the ground. I just dont agree with it and dont believe it will be utilized. That being said, I wonder what other ideas are out there to keep seniors active? I think the goal is to improves ones health and longevity so maybe something else makes more sense?
A long walk the length of the beach in the loose sand, but only during the hours allowed by municipal by-law. Does wonders for the legs. Free admission. Organically air-conditioned.
There are running groups so a seniors walking group including a beach walk sounds like a good idea.Could also have a stretch workout at the end of walk to help increase mobility. This could be done at the park.
Sure can. Start at the Darcy Street end, walk to the harbour, have a stretch workout, then walk two blocks to Kelly’s to hydrate with a cold one. Repeat as as required.
Wally agreed. Have 2 or 3 beers. Repeat the next day.
The way I used to ride my mountain bike down in the Don Valley when I lived in TO. Burn 1,000s of calories, bike up Bayview to McSorley’s and put it all right back on again in the same trip.
The good old days.
The Bayview cutoff at 6am on a long weekend Monday. Virtually no traffic and I could lean well into the curves descending into the valley, crossing the lanes hoping no oncoming. Exhilarating.
…and lived to tell about it!
If the grant requires that the fitness park be in Victoria Park and staff plus the Parks and Recreation Committee are opposed to that location for a variety of excellent reasons then perhaps the whole plan should be scuttled. I’m certain that there are other uses for the $10K budgeted.
Who are the unseen hands that are now suggesting placement at the CCC or in Cottesmore Park? These are the two places least likely to attract users for this equipment.
I am in favour of exercise. I am in my eighth decade and go regularly to a fitness studio, and enjoy bicycling in good weather. But I have seen these adult exercise installations around the world from Malta to Ontario, and the one common element is that they are rarely used.
I agree that the Town’s $10,000 commitment could find many better uses.
Council seems to be ignoring the public’s opinion – see the Addendum above. Now’s the time to email or phone them with your opinion.
How about a proper weight room at the CCC? something one can use in February.
I could get behind something like that possibly. Im not yet a senior but it would be nice to have it built with seniors in mind. It would be nice to see strength training classes for seniors as well. This make more sense to at least explore the idea. No sense creating an artificial need and spend taxdollars if there isnt a legitimate need and demand.