The last item on the last night’s council meeting was approval of a Sanitary Sewer Flow Monitoring study at Brookside. This is a routine thing to determine how many households could be supported on the property and costs somewhere between $25K and $40K. But there was a long discussion over whether the Town should pay for it or make the potential buyer pay for it which is apparently the usual process. Both Nicole Beatty and Miriam Mutton were not happy that the Town would be paying for it as requested by the potential buyer of Brookside. During the meeting, we also learned that there has been a conditional sale of Brookside and this is expected to close on November 13 although the flow study cannot be done until January.
The discussion got heated and Mayor Cleveland said that he was humiliated by Council’s reluctance to approve $25K to allow the Brookside deal to close. In the end the flow study was approved 5-2 in a recorded vote with Mutton and Beatty against.
But the big issue was that paying for the study requested by the buyer would set a precedent – usually the developer pays. However, Lucas thought that it would be a good thing to do for other projects since it would speed up the process of approving developments. Darling suggested that the cost could be recovered from developers in a charge back.
In another item on Council’s agenda that relates to the encampment, Mayor Cleveland gave a notice of motion that he supported the move in BC towards “Involuntary Care Support”. Brian Darling supported the idea but called it “Mandatory Rehab”. The motion passed with Nicole abstaining because she was “not fully informed” on the matter.
Stay tuned for more from this long meeting – it finished at 11:15 pm.
Footnote
We learned of the Brookside closing date from MPP David Piccini who started the Council meeting with a report from Queen’s Park. He had not mentioned the encampment but it came up with questions from Councillors. In particular, Councillor Adam Bureau asked when the deal would close and David said November 13.
Dunn House in Toronto has done just that. Opened a housing shelter near UHN as parr if their Social Medicine program. Here is an excerpt,
“ A hundred people living on the streets of Toronto last year accounted for thousands of visits to two emergency departments run by the University Health Network, but most needed something Canadian hospitals don’t normally provide. They didn’t require stitches or a cast or other emergency care, according to Andrew Boozary, executive director of the Gattuso Centre for Social Medicine at UHN and a family physician, but a permanent place to live. On Thursday, UHN is set to begin meeting that need for 51 frequent users of its ERs with the ceremonial opening of Dunn House, a unique social housing project designed to improve the lives of people experiencing homelessness, while reducing their use of a strained public health care system.”
Great. Build it in Brighton.
We have a drug problem in Cobourg which leads to homelessness. Most of these people would have a home to go back to if they got clean. Loving arms of moms, dads, brothers, sisters and aunts and uncles who would house them in a second if they stopped doing drugs. Most of these people are not truly homeless.
The County should build a motel near the hospital for the homeless. If 310 is the answer what will be done with the overflow? House tyem here close to the County office.
The existing Golden Plough is going to be torn down. It could serve as a refuge for the homeless.
As per today’s county meeting overflow can go to port hope, Brighton or Colborne. No more in Cobourg until the rest of Northumberland has a shelter.
It’s time to roll up the red carpet and send these people out of Cobourg. Enough is enough. There is always a way, there just needs to be a political will.
Create a bylaw that makes it illegal to remain in a public park past a certain time of day, or something to that effect, whereby it effectively disincentives “living” in a public space.
People respond to incentives. This is an incentive problem. We have rolled out the red carpet to these tax dollar gobblers for too long.
If they are sent away, many will return (see s.6 of the Charter – mobility rights). If anyone tries to evict them, (see: decision of the Ontario Superior Court of Justice of January 27, 2023 which found that the Region of Waterloo’s attempt to evict encampment residents from public municipal land was a violation of Charter rights (CV-22-717). The town does not have jurisdiction to override Charter rights.
In sum, we need a plan that is well researched and funded to deal in an effective way with this issue. Most communities in Canada and the US are dealing with the same issue.
You are well versed in the Charter of Rights, Robert Horgan. Interesting You know MANY will return. Why return? All have denied any social services offered? 12-15 people evicted from unsafe drug dens over a year ago. It is their responsibility to get clean & find housing.
What do you care about Cost & metastasizing? You live in Grafton now, after contributing immensely to the problems we in Cobourg are facing now. We have a harmful drug addiction problem, not a housing problem in Cobourg.
We also have a problem with our Police Chief & board, who do not respect fallen officers in the line of duty, a Chief who does not stand up to the Feds lawless regulations or the people he is to PROTECT. Nor does he Report nearly 1/2 the crime committed in our town.
Maybe all have not, in fact, denied all social services offered and they are, in fact, using them. Is it possible you have received incorrect information?
The original 12-15 who destroyed the flop houses they were living in have not accepted any meaningful help offered by County Social Services—who are now too frightened to go to the encampment without police escort.
All at the Brookside encampment are addicted to Crystal Meth & OR Fentanyl. Both drugs destroy the body & mind. 24-7 you want MORE at ANY cost.
Meth is preferred, as cheaper. But “best” high sought after is the fentanyl people are overdosing from.
This is correct information.
This is correct information Leslie. Let’s not forget that the county forced the encampment off their own property because county staff were afraid of the drug addicts and their drug fueled behaviours.
Yet it’s perfectly safe for children 😳
They can return to the homes they came from if they stop doing drugs. Why don’t you research that?
Yes and your elected officials did it They roledout the Sunshine list
and are remotely working even if they are not a home
But the fact still remains where do they go if not there / here
with the County Blessing
And more and more people and new immigrants unemployed
will be finding them selves in this position many were self employed
no great Govt. or teacher Pensions to keep up with the cost of living .
and as I said earlier CPP OAS & ODSP have not been properly indexed
or increased over the last decade to adequately provide even if you worked and contributed over you life time
I travel around Ont quit a bit and I see a lot of good Elderly folks out there
with nothing or shopping at the food bank Not all are young and useless
living on our streets .
True there are quite a few elderly folks and others that need very practical help (food, shelter, assistance). That’s not what we’re talking about. There’s been about 6 drug houses in town and they’ve all been destroyed. Housing is a solution for the former group, not the latter.
no surprise. see: Another Encampment Sprouts Up in Cobourg, Pete Fisherhttps://todaysnorthumberland.ca/2024/09/30/video-another-encampment-sprouts-up-in-cobourg/
Many more if Brookside camp is disbanded.
Sure, because having nearly 100 self-proclaimed addicts and thieves in a location surrounded by schoolchildren is far better than having a few people in another random location.
On a side note, who do you believe will find it easier to make decisions that better themselves: a person living in a community that encourages harmful behavior as the norm, or a person whose surroundings consist mostly of individuals making healthy choices and contributing to society?
We should not be encouraging large communities within communities. We need small homes (not low-barrier) and resources scattered throughout the county to encourage people to become contributors to a healthy society.
Brookside is the Provinces Property Not ours
The Homeless situation is created by underfunded people whether on CPP , OAS or ODSP physically , mentally or financially challenged The problem will not go away just because of a sale .
It may spread out or move to the Beach and Trailer Park or West end where ever there is a water supply Where ever it goes or what it becomes it will be less controlled spread out
But lets make this the Provinces problem Brook side — inside the fence
make s and excellent Controlled Housing , Rehab and Retraining center .
Whether they live in their tents and or the Barracks its all there in place
ready to go out of site . Wash Rm ,Kitchens , Dinning hall, Housing Let them in— then when the Mayor , County and Piccini have a plan and housing inplace Close the sale .
The Buyer can Continue with all the usual studies and the usual 5 yr planning and rezoning process like everyone else and every other developer goes through Then Close the deal when Vacant possession is available .
The Buyer knows he has purchased and a deal on the land , does not have to pay taxes or carrying cost until his project is approved . We get to see what’s going there through the usual processes
Once the Sale happens Piccini will not help with the Homeless situation
he has demonstrated this as has the Ford Govt. and the County .
Again- proximity to schools. These are not safe people they are violent. What you are saying is that our kids safety doesn’t matter.
The safety of all kids at all schools matter; so, scattering these people makes no sense. It will endanger more kids. Pixy dust, NIMBYism and kind wishes are not a solution. These people are not leaving. We need a plan from the Province, the County and the Town that makes sense and is funded.
I still believe that the Encampment needs to be shut down, otherwise Cobourg will be faced with two major problems – 310 D and a spot for drug addicts to call home – with home growing.
I agree it is disappointing and irresponsible that the Town does not have any semblance of a “Plan” to deal with the Encampment closure. However, if this were an election year we all know the Mayor and Councillors would be preaching a “Plan” – as votes seem to be the only concept they understand.
Ok. so, let’s see the plan and its funding before the Province takes the irreversible step of selling it.
If people with addictions don’t want to accept the tremendous amount of help that’s being offered, that’s on them. Not the government, or the hard working townspeople.
3 schools in such close proximity to Brookside is dangerous. The police need to enforce and make lawlessness totally uncomfortable. $25k over how much we are paying annually now is NOTHING. As Councillor Darling suggested the cost could be recovered from developers in a charge back. The encampment needs to be shut down ROBERT H.
I believe you missed my point about the election year. Leadership have made it quite clear they are not establishing a Plan, but are prepared to wing it.
We need to move forward. Enough said.
no. I did not miss your point about election year. There is simply no plan (even though, we could have a plan) and we will all suffer the inevitable consequences for future decades.
It’s not up to the town of Cobourg to come up with a “plan” to deal with the encampment closure. Please watch and listen to county and town council meetings.
Yes, you are correct.
My thinking on a “Plan” is geared to the fact that the Town can’t sit by and say “not me”. The Town needs to lay out a strategy of what they CAN do to handle the negative situations that will most definitely arise when a Brookside closes in six weeks I.e. enforcement of by laws, police interaction. Not just pull a wait and see.
James Bisson laid out an eight point recommendation under the posting “Update on Brookside” Sept 5. Start with that.
It’s quite clear cobourg is going to be left on its own to deal with this mess.
Yes. I agree with you there. Police and by law will have to really step up and do their jobs.
Ask the Feds for it – the creators of the problem. Hopefully we will be under new governance soon with tougher crime laws, enforced rehab and no “free lunches” for these types.
Scattering means less unsafe conditions for certain schools. Right now kids at CCI and gr Gummow are in constant danger. Less addicts around each school means overall kids are a bit safer. Literally my kids walk to those schools every day – it’s so so dangerous. Like death threat, needle, feces, bat and knife dangerous you have no idea.
Why do you not mention 310 for your friends from brookside?
So you acknowledge the danger to kids but still believe they should be able to stay at Brookside.
Pixie dust, NIMBYism, and kind wishes??? You are right: Pixie dust – not a real thing; NIMBYism – you’re on the wrong page to bring that up. Last I checked, this was the only town in Northumberland County with any resources, save that version of name-calling for Port Hope, Brighton, Campbellford etc ; Kind wishes – with the current ideological environment, kind wishes are the only tolerated voices allowed, no ideas or opinions, let’s just send kind wishes to the addicts they’ll make healthy choices for themselves and everyone else too.
See, all 3 useless, we agree on something
Behind the Fence through the gates in a supervised safe housing location we are already paying for security & Policing
Maybe with security cameras .
If you think that the people Challenged , Elderly and Woman living in these conditions are not being take advantage of or abused & robed by the stronger your wrong . I think the majority would be happier
or they will just move down the street . But they will be on the Streets .
Do you have another suggestion to deal with the Homeless until the County or The Town comes up with something .?????????
Please offer it up .
The security is for them, not us or kids walking by, so no we don’t already have security.
Homeless or lawlessness? 2 different things. Things would be better for the actual homeless if we weren’t also dealing with criminals/addicts.
Exactly. Thank you Kate.
It’s only common sense. If a study is conducted, it should be paid for by either the Province (owner) or the unidentified developer (and not Cobourg which receives none of the proceeds of the sale) and include a study of (a) the likely location(s) to which the Brookside camp people will inevitably relocate/scatter, (b) the related additional costs of locating and assisting these people in their new locations (as opposed to providing services to the one existing location), (c) the source of funding for the additional assistance costs; (d) as well as a study of the negative effects on businesses and residents (downtown and elsewhere), esp if many relocate to the Victoria park campground or other downtown locations. The incremental costs and the quantum of negative effects on Cobourg over a 10 year period will greatly exceed the sale price. Since the Province owns the land, it needs to either(a) not sell the property or (b) indemnify Cobourg for the foreseeable additional costs over a 10 year period. Why would Cobourg’s mayor wish to assist the sale of Brookside (including using Cobourg taxpayer money) if the property is owned by the Province and not Cobourg. In sum, sale of Brookside does not appear to make common sense; esp without the related planning for the obvious effects.
Clearly you don’t live in the east end. Come for a visit and we’ll talk.
I do live in the east end, which is one of the reasons that I do not want this issue to metastasize. I just want a plan based on common sense to deal with the foreseeable consequences and I want to know who will pay for the consequences.
How far east Robert H.?
Removing the camp is not a solution. Without a plan, it is just a costly step to increased misery for all.
Without removing camp it’s going to get worse. I have kids in the area trying to walk to school. They can’t walk on encampment side, too dangerous. Then a crazy lady made her home in the bridge across from the encampment – so no safe route to school. They can’t go to Tim’s, we can’t go to county heaven, can’t ride their bikes around the neighborhood. We can’t gave this grow even more. If they spread they spread. They’ve been offered services for a year and have refused. If the encampment gets bulldozed some may seek help, and some may go back to where they came from. Either way they need to get the heck out of the east end. I don’t want my kids walking past Chris Kneilands and his baseball bats on their way to school anymore.
Where do you propose that they go The West End . The Town and the County Clearly have No Plans for these people and the County Housing Director having quit last week gives a clear message of Hopelessness.
I do think it will get worse if the encampment stays open. Currently they’re being bused from Belleville and Peterborough. Closing camp will likely stop people from coming and then we can figure it out from there. Honestly if the encampment never opened we’d just been left with the original 21 people it would have been easier to figure out a plan for housing. Now we’ve got 4x as much. Let’s not bring in anymore. To be clear I’m only talking about lawless addicts. Homeless are different (and probably the more likely to utilize 310 and services being offered). The less desirable we make Cobourg for lawlessness the better. They will go back to Belleville and Peterborough. But also maybe it is more fair to spread people out when considering housing options. Why should the east end have to take it all? It’s not like our taxes are any lower.
We can thank our advocates/ activists for the encampment opening.
Now when it closes those that wish to go to 310 may do so. The one that don’t want to go because they can’t follow rules must be dealt with by police when they cause drug fueled behaviours and lawlessness. Period.
Why should Townspeople propose where drug fueled addicts, committing crime go? Why should the government (taxpayers) have to do everything? If people don’t want to accept the tremendous amount of help that’s being offered, that’s on them. Not the government, or the hard working townspeople.
3 schools in such close proximity to Brookside is dangerous. The police need to enforce and make lawlessness totally uncomfortable. $25k over how much we are paying annually now is NOTHING. As Councillor Darling suggested the cost could be recovered from developers in a charge back.
Agreed. My kids go to those schools. There are needles left at CCI and CR Gummow constantly and it’s not fair. These are also the 2 largest schools in Cobourg. So maybe the west end is better then? Less schools in the area.
Quit?
Once the handouts stop these people will go back to where they came from if out of town. The others will disperse, but since there will be no advocates and no central drop off point they will eventually seek help, as winter approaches. Unfortunately with no visible reference point then community talk will also decrease. Then the advocates who started this mess will also fade into the shadows…
if only………..but hardly unlikely…310 Division St will be open,Transition House was never fully utilized.
They all didn’t just arrive when Brookside was opened to them and handouts / support will continue.
We’ll find out shortly I imagine.
Definitely going to be an Autumn season like we in the downtown have never experienced before.When 310 Division St with the 24 hour assistance and comfort Hub opens. The que will form around the block as folks move between food , warmth, water and washrooms and the constant drug availability at James and John. The situation couldn’t be more accommodating. No need of commitment to Transition House services or attempts at improving their lot in life as long as they may come and go and sleep in store fronts a little way down the street after buying illegal drugs with their unmonitored housing portion of ODSP pensions.
A neighbourhood watch group that patrols at consistent intervals is a thought; this is common occurrence in many areas now. No one else is going to help!
Good idea – but sad we can’t rely on our police or politicians to protect us.
No one is coming to help us, we have to help ourselves.
What has happened to Cobourg when residents are filled with despair and hopelessness and feelings of abandonment. I note that their is little from CPS in the media about the their downtown enforcement program. You know the one where they were releasing peoples names upon arrest. I guess CPS has returned to their old ways now that the Chief has quelled the talk of OPP for Cobourg?
No more ” the feel good town”
You obviously don’t have children, no one wants unpredictable people hanging around their kids! This strip of property is by far the most irresponsible location for any amount of these individuals anywhere in Northumberland County.
I, like many on here, am all for more affordable housing, drug treatment facilities and other resources. BUT… with significant conditions that should be obvious to everyone. Resources should be shared throughout Northumberland County and not in one single location, and all persons must live in a way that respects the rights and freedoms of others. Continually lowering expectations/barriers hurts both those using services and those in the neighbouring communities. Also, all levels of government need to stop funding anything that emboldens or de stigmatizes the leading cause of disability and death amongst young people. They, the government and drug users, are propping up organized crime, and in part, are responsible for this mess. It is so obvious to anyone not indoctrinated by this drug cult.
Have you learned nothing from sharing space with drug users?
Cobourg council should definitely not fund the water study at Brookside.its a development requirement that a developer should pay for .
But is the council having second thoughts on purchasing Brookside by this move? Who Knows?
It looks like the proposed purchaser at Brookside is trying the old trick of letting the closing date be put back, let the problem grow at the encampment so the Province will drop the $9.1 asking price !,
I am betting there will still be tents at the encampment after 301 opens. no “Plan B”
But wait theres more problems coming our way if you live in the East End!
Brook Road north is closed to put in a drainage pipe all the way down from that large new housing site North of Elgin ;where are they connecting it to? The area around Coverdale ,Hamilton court etc sewers have all been overloaded for some time as the development on King has been added nilly willy.Basements have been flooded
Mosquito breeding ponds form the Councils only storm water treatment solutions
Will the Town be installing safety backflow valves at each older property washout point ?
If Not there will be sewage in basements soon and Cobourg Council will be held responsible for lack of proper planning and foresight!
The provinces new $25M grant for new pipes is one that should have come before not after developers have built hundreds of new houses.
Looking ahead not in the rear view mirror is a Council basic rquirement
“Cobourg Council will be held responsible for lack of proper planning and foresight!”
We will never know exactly how much it cost to settle the lawsuit on Water St a few years back! But the circumstances are the same – sewers backed up and ruined a basement and footings.
Folks, I’m not talking about the encampment. That is a HUGE Province/County/Town issue. I do worry (VERY much) how all of that is going to play out once the property is sold.
What my comment was about, yesterday, is that the cost of studies that developers are routinely required to produce should NOT be at the taxpayer’s expense.
There have been posters commenting on “a preferred buyer”. Does anyone know who the Nov 13 closing buyer is? I haven’t seen anything on this.
I have heard something from a reliable source. But there are so many rumours going around I don’t want to add to it. Nov. 13 is not too long. Enjoy the weather, today there is a music event in Memorial Park in Port Hope with good food, Thanksgiving and the fall colours will be here very soon. It is interesting to know who the buyer is but to me the bigger question is where will the encampment go.
The cost of renting is too high for many, like the couple in the Pete Fisher video Leslie, posted a link near the bottom of these comments. Developers are big business and will build housing to maximize profits. If we want a certain type of housing we could make it more attractive for developers to build that type. Multiunit apartment buildings would increase population density and add units with lower rents compared to detached or row housing that is common in new areas. Is that what we want? If so paying for a sewer flow study, if the development is the type we want, could be a good idea.
The waiting list for RGI housing is up to 4 years for 2 bedrooms. If the couple in the video applied 4 years ago instead of going to Niagara then maybe they would have housing now. Instead they got a $8000 loan and bought supplies to build a shelter out of shipping pallets. The up to 4 years can be greatly reduced depending on the individual situation. I know of a woman who stopped paying rent, was evicted 10 months later, lived in her car and now has community housing. The eviction was less than 2 years ago. The couple in the video are not addicts and people feel sorry for them. I understand that. But why have they not worked with the system, as flawed as it may be, and now have a place to live?
Perhaps the couple in the video are still unhoused because, as they mentioned several times, the system doesn’t provide housing for their two dogs.
Yes the dogs. Pets are important to some people. Somebody asked about the guy in the red vest. The letters on the back, IHARC about | IHARC
The woman I mentioned, living in her car, has 2 dogs.
Note that that according to CRA (Canada Revenue Agency) BxC and I.H.A.R.C. are not registered charities but rather are “non-profit”.
Yes Ken I read the account in the Todays Northumberland. My thought was you have to be able to take care of yourself before you can extend your help to pet ownership. Vet care can be very expensive – neutering, vaccines – other problems that arise such as dental care, flea treatments …. Is she providing proper care to those 2 dogs? I have seen homeless people with dogs the Humane Society should have a by-law that disallows it and allows them to be taken into their care.
An entitled attitude I thought – what would she be like as a tenant?
I wonder how the unhoused over the years ever survived ?
Self determination ,pride and hard grafting was the driving force.
There are circumstances for sure that deserve funding etc but to those who decided that lifestyle was fir them it’s a different story.
What requirements are regulated today re the continual handing out of tax payers money to those who are physically fit, have chosen the lifestyle ,and no intention of seeking employment when it’s all provided to them no questions asked.?
Are they not required to show proof that they’re actively seeking employment etc to receive that money handed to them because they’ve made a personal choice??
I don’t see any in rags nor short of clothing ,cigarettes ,alcohol cell phones etc.
We either pay for that or keep paying the 80 plus thousand for the fire dept and police and ambulance services ETC
Pretty much. We have to stop the bleeding it’s only getting worse. I’m in the East end and nobody should have to live like this. It’s scary and dangerous. I have to see Chris Kneilands every day riding his bike around like he owns Cobourg. He steals everything he can find and takes it to the buy and sell. Meanwhile he should be in jail – he’s not a victim. Honestly Lucas is trying to do us a favour here. We need the encampment to close NOW. We don’t have the luxury of waiting for a more preferred buyer, we just need this deal done and then start the process of getting our lives back in Cobourg.
This must include the complete Town, not any particular area. Even though the camp is located as it is, there is fallout everywhere. Business owners cleaning refuse and excrement, home owners suffering theft and damage, open spaces littered with drug gear, open drug consumption and dealing on park benches. When the camp is dismantled the problem may not be as “in your face” but the overall issues will be more widespread and impactful. There is a long road ahead for recovery from this problem….it needs to start with the recovery of the people in this life, court reform, policing policy adjustment and accountability of monies and services allotted.
Anyone else see a conflict of interest here with Adam Bureau owning the Buy and Sell and that seems to be the main clientele going in to sell things?
Also why is he Facebook friends with Ben Staples a convicted drug dealer who lives in the biggest drug house in town? Can we start asking questions here, make it make sense.
Perhaps some of the $25 million for water infrastructure from premier Ford that was announced can be used to cover that cost. I would think the buyer should have to pay for half of it even after the fact once the subdivision is in and I wish the building department would demand that houses be built with double driveways because everyone is buying up Holmes splitting them in half and turning them into rentals and there’s not enough capacity to hold the vehicles, which is a particular pain in the winter
I feel like this is part of the deal with the developer. I live in the east end and my life is a nightmare. I think Lucas was basically saying – do we want this deal done or not? Those of us in the east end need to end this nightmare, whatever it takes. Honestly Missy and Greenwood should be paying this 25k out of pocket after this nightmare they’ve caused Cobourg, but since they won’t I’m happy to have my taxes go to this to just get the deal done so I can have my life back. I get that they may spread but some may actually seek help, and some might go back to Peterborough and Oshawa. I do think at least cobourg will become less attractive if we don’t have a designated site to house people that want to do drugs and steal all day.
Developer is going to ask Town and CPS to move encampments.
Town and CPS won’t do it.
Town shouldn’t do it. Greenwood Coalition should. Oh wait … their staff are all resigning!
Here is an article on “Taxpayer Protection Legislation” and a call for Premier Ford to initiate it. In today’s Sun. Worth a read.
https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/jay-goldberg-ontario-taxpayers-deserve-taxpayer-protection-legislation
I think this would be welcome here in Cobourg, given the lates boondoggle by Leadership group!
Don’t forget to forget about fixing East pier
Why in the WORLD would the Town pay for a study that is ALWAYS the responsibility of the property owner or the potential purchaser. What next? The Town pays for the Traffic Impact Study, the Environmental Impact Study, the Floodplain Study, the Functional Servicing Report, the Geotechnical Study, the Planning Rationale Report (I could go on and on)? These studies/reports are routinely required prior to the approval of a development. It’s called “the cost of doing business”. I’m proud of Councillors Beatty and Mutton.
When is the council going to realize that the more burden you put on current taxpayers for future developers the more you will get negative feedback from angry citizens that cannot keep up with continued tax increases.
I think you would make a great councilor
I’m very pleased that you think that, Linda. Many thanks, but … nope.
The reason we’re paying? Just to keep the potential buyer happy and not back out, give them all they want to get rid of the “scourge” that is the encampment.
I mean pretty much. That’s the situation Missy and GWC put us in. We have to get rid of this encampment it’s the only way.
Exactly, this is such a minuscule amount compared to the $100 k in costs for the encampment, theft and mental trauma to the residents especially kids at the 2 closest schools, safety and actual health and safety risks including overdose of actual children, pollution to the creek, so what it takes to close the deal. I will throw in some home baked cookies too!
The buyer has a sweet CHEAP deal on the location. Let them pay
Finally:
“… gave a notice of motion that he supported the move in BC towards “Involuntary Care Support”. Brian Darling supported the idea but called it “Mandatory Rehab”.
It’s about time this topic shows up on “government” radar. Let’s learn from the 1800’s Opium
problem in China more on this at:
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/modern-asian-studies/article/abs/opium-smoking-in-late-imperial-china-a-reconsideration/BEDA008F91EADA51A7830248295AD3AC
I just reviewed Cecilia Nasmith ‘s article with the Mayor
and I fail to see why the Mayor or Piccini are so Warm and Fuzzy over this particular Buyer / Developer .
This land and Building is a Provincial obligation / problem not the Towns or ours.
It costs us nothing to sit there . Other than the Homeless issue which will not be resolved by this sale only relocated . MAYBE THE DEVELOPER SHOULD ACCOMODATE THESE HOMLESS AS PART OF THE NEW HOUSE BUILDING PROJECT — say instead of the usual Parkland contribution to the Town According to some at the Town we are Under Parked for our density now. The fact that HE the Mayor has driven hundreds of miles around the Province and spent countless hours with this group makes one wonder . What’s in it and for who? and Why ??
He states that the Developers intent is to move quickly — I believe that’s the intent of every developer that comes to town Time is Money in this game for every Developer . We have Dozens of Housing Developers & Developments sitting in Limbo around this Town for years now Why should this one be treated Differently— Why is our Mayor working so hard for the Province
and not the Town and its people .
The Province has deeper Pockets
let them pay for the studies BUT OVERLOOKING IMPACT STUDIES ???
There are many developers held up for 5 Plus +++ Years in this Town on this very reason and basis of being forced by the towns Engineering & Planning Depts. to complete and pay for such studies . Storm & Flood Water , Sanitary Sewer Capacity & Flow, Traffic Flow Shadow and Noise , Arborist studies to protect those Butternut trees etc etc
How much impact will this unknown developer & development really have on the Neighbouring Community ????????
What Costs will we be left with down the road . Why are other Developers no Fast Tracked by the Mayor if housing is so important Who if not the local Homeless and those needing affordable homes are we Really building for anyway ????
?????????????
Not wanting this to look like a ‘conspiracy theory’ but way back when Brookside was decommissioned from the ‘jail’ designation I said it would be sold to a “Ford friend’ for a very attractive price. Then along comes the encampment which potentially helped the buyer get a great price because the town and it’s citizens were so anxious to have it be a private property that could then evict them. And now they’re even asking for the town to pay for their due diligence. Wow!! Very curious to see who this buyer is on November 13.
And then throw in ‘Mandatory rehab’. Do you suppose that might be where some of the encampment might end up??
Are you suggesting Politicians at all levels are Benefitting
in some way with this deal , is someone looking for a Provincial Job
maybe But ————-
There is still nowhere for the Encampment to go on Nov. 13 th
Still most of you will be happy the encampment will be gone but as Sandpiper asks where? Here’s speculation – your backyards!
It’s already in my backyard it can’t get worse. Honestly some might actually seek help?!?!
Take them, by taxi, by bus, by the “ear” and take them back where they came from. I heard they came mostly from Port Hope. See how they like it.
Try job hunting !?!
Wow did you just ask what the impact will be on the neighbouring community??? Wow – I live in the neighbouring community (around the corner) any desperately want this deal done. The encampment has had a massive negative impact on us. It costs you nothing but it’s cost my safety and my kids safety. It’s cost me my ability to walk around my neighbourhood or let my kids have any freedom. These are not people that are safe. I live here I can tell you that. They carry bats around and they threaten and harass constantly. The mayor is basically saying they offered let’s get the deal done. Ya we can wait for a better buyer but at what cost? The encampment is growing every day with people being bused from out of town. There is human feces all over town, needles, drug paraphernalia, garbage and chaos. Not taking this deal will cost us so much more. As someone who lives in the area a developer is not my first choice. I would have preferred a college or a community Center but at this point they could put an 80 story condo there and I’d be happy. Lets just get it sold asap and start to get our lives back in the east end. The day my kid can walk to school safely will be a good day.
Safety and peace of mind is always more important than money. There aren’t many people left living at the encampment now anyway. The conditions are deplorable. Even they can’t stand the filth and the rats running around at night. You can hear them chewing and moving around.
I heard there were 106 (from a very reliable source). Last year there were 21. So are they just leaving 60+ tents plus more garbage than the Bewdley dump?
There’s probably between 12 and 15 left. Reliable source. They are leaving because of the Deplorable Conditions there. It’s not liveable. There are rats everywhere.Health unit has been notified. GWC and all the advocates have disappeared. Their protest for tiny homes didn’t work. All the compassionate people have fled like rats. They have no use for these drug addicts anymore. I don’t even see them going to the Encampment with a Plate of Sandwiches which would cost nothing basically.
I’m so sick of phoney people.
The Sale will not make these people leave town
They will just disburse through out . Less controlled
As the Mayor has No plan in place to House or relocate
thia many people at least not one that he is revealing .
as Council and County seem to thrive on the publicity and discomfort
thats unloaded on its residents .
At least here at the Brookside location they are somewhat
supervised . But I say it again this is a Provincial property
why is the Mayor involved in a Real-estate transaction .
and showing favoritism to this Buyer . And Not having a housing plan in place .
Open the Gates to Brookside and let them into the Buildings and services Brookside has to offer
Such as Wash rooms and showers , Kitchens and Dinning hall along with Housing Barracks and above all a Roof over their heads .
In my view an Encampment encourages strength in numbers. The larger the Encampment grew, the bolder and stronger they have become. And why not, with the Enablers feeding, providing tents and stoves, driving them to the Y to shower etc. It’s a free ride.
Being broken up takes the benefits away from them. Makes a situation more manageable. No more united we stand; but rather divided we fall – become less of a threat and easier to deal with and close their tents down. An example is the camper that was removed from Cobourg Creek this week at King and Westwood.
The Mayor has said there is an anti camping by law (in front of the Premier) and there is zero tolerance in Cobourg – so let’s see him carry out his word.
With less attractiveness now, as Kate says, they will go to other Town Encampments and get out of Cobourg.
Cobourg Creek Camper was not removed They had already left the site it was abandoned
Yes there is strength in # s but the County has made a decision this town is home .
He was forcibly removed.
“As a result of the subsequent investigation, police located, arrested, and charged a 55-year-old Cobourg man with the Possession of a Weapon for a Dangerous Purpose, Uttering Threats – Cause death or Bodily Harm, and Carrying a Concealed Weapon.”
https://todaysnorthumberland.ca/2024/09/26/update-video-encampment-resident-charged-with-carry-concealed-weapon-utter-threats-no-name-released/
Watch the Pete Fisher video. At the 4:02 mark he is led away in handcuffs.
While the County has made that decision, I doubt the druggies care. They will go where they get benefits and are catered too.
I believe there will be shelter in other towns eventually. I think Brighton is working on opening one. This will take some pressure off Cobourg.
Ostrander was pretty clear in the video of council meeting he had a report done to see if Brighton could help by having a homeless shelter and he landed on NO Brighton cannot have one. How very convenient for the county to have every single shelter and resource located only in Cobourg, while it literally crumbles in crisis.
and when it gets overcrowded ..where next?.
Sandpiper you have hit the nail on the head. Why is the Minister of Labour at a council meeting pushing a developer’s needs for quick turn around when the others who have been Building in Cobourg have waited for years. What is the bigger picture and do the residents of Cobourg want what this developer is building. Why are we paying for our Mayor to drive all over the province.There a lot of questions that need answering before the residents of Cobourg get stated with this. Anytime elected officials are cutting corners we need to be wary!!! We want the impact studies done period. They are in place for a reason on. Let’s be honest the encampment is only moving somewhere else for f this property sells. Cleveland has already said publicly, the county has no plan for the removal of the tents and we should disengage from the county.
A few town halls are required so residents can learn what is being proposed. What is the bigger picture? Is it more homes for who? We own this town and should decide weather this development is good for the town.
There are no good paying jobs here. Is it homes for people that will spend their lives commuting to Toronto for work? It is interesting that 2200 homes will be built on Brook road north and we have to say for who.
The province has given $25 million to Cobourg for infrastructure yet they want us to pay $25,000’.There are only a handful of people that can afford Tribute homes. From what understand the homes already built there are sitting empty with owners trying to rent them.
So what is the plan? We need to know. The cost of the study, they want the taxpayers to complete, that every other developer has to pay for shouldn’t be a significant cost to this developer. I f $25000 is a problem, we should be worried about what is coming.
Brookside has been on the market a year. Other developers could have negotiated the same deal. Who knows it could be a local developer (there’s a local builder in east village and a local one building the loft/towns accross from encampment). We don’t know who bought it. I don’t think Brookside was as desirable as people think. It is on a flood plain and there’s 106 squatters there. Perhaps this was just a part of this deal. Honestly why are people getting so bent out of shape over 25k? It cost 3x as much to taxpayers to keep the encampment open (as was stated prior) because of the amount of ambulances and police needed. Heck I’m sure there’s enough of us in the east end willing to band together and pay the damn 25k ourselves. Do people not realize it’s been for sale a year with no buyers? Do people realize what’s going on downtown? This needs to end now.
If the Mayor has been drinking all over I would think it is not a local developer. Even if it is the money for the survey is not the problem. Just think about a $25,000 survey is key to getting a decent development underway. If it is we need to worry about who it is and what they have proposed. We citizens should be told what we are buying into. The tent city will just move to another location and all of us hope it is not closer to where we live.
Sorry I meant o say driving all over not drinking.
Town of Cobourg allowing people to set up in the Victoria Park campground is an absolute no-no. This will hurt the downtown even more. The encampment needs to be on the outskirts of town close to the hospital and social services. We are just re-inventing the Brookside encampment “wheel” by allowing encampment camping at the camp ground in the offseason. . What costs will be incurred to remove these folks again? The Cobourg Boardwalk is one of Cobourg’s jewels. Please don’t take that away from the people as they will not want to walk by there at all.
Have there been discussions by council or NHC to allow encampments in Victoria Park? Or is this an assumption that they will try when the Brookside encampment closes?
Lesley, in the comments below Leslie posted a link to a video of a homeless couple. Sandpiper mentioned the Victoria Park Campground in a response to a link posted by Rational. There is likely some information in that link. In Aug 2023 Cobourg council amended the parks bylaw to allow a county employee to allow encampments in Cobourg parks. Most of us only recently learned of this. It is covered in other posts on this blog. Yes, there has been discussions, sort of, by Cobourg council. That was over a year ago. I am going to check the link provided by Rational now to learn more.
I recall the County put forth a motion? to allow camping in Cobourg Parks not the Town Council who stated the current by-law is effective in removing illegal camping on Town property but has no jurisdiction on County property. Do you have a copy of the amendment Kevin – this is not what I had understood when this matter came up. Most appreciated – Please post the Town amendment on the by-law change not to be confused with the county’s. As stated by Bryan the campground belongs to the Town and posted on You Tube are police and by-law removing an illegal camper from a Cobourg creek location just recently.
Dave, I believe this is what you requested.
From Cobourg’s Parks Bylaw (070-2023):
“17.2 Where the Northumberland County CAO, being ultimately responsible for Social Services as the Service Manager for the Town of Cobourg in consultation with the Town of Cobourg, is satisfied that the number of locally available shelter beds is less than the number of individuals in need of shelter, the Northumberland County CAO may permit such individuals to erect and be within temporary structures, on municipal lands without a permit otherwise required by this By-law for such time and subject to such conditions and restrictions as the Northumberland County CAO may from time to time establish.”
It seems that an unelected county bureaucrat can house people on Cobourg’s lands.
Thanks Ken – how insane is that when the Town crafted a by-law to ensure this is exactly what they wished to have power over – removal of people in tents from Town land.
Why would the county direct homeless people to camp in Cobourgs campgrounds at the beach?
We don’t really know who these people are. Is the guy David Scott in the video the same person that was arrested in Cobourg in March of 2020 for weapons charges or is this someone different?
I have a friend with children that lives in that area and her kids have been traumatized enough by drug users violent behaviour.
What happens when brookside closes. Will all these drug users be sent to camp at Cobourg campgrounds?
I’m confused. If the town does not own Brookside why would we be asked to pay for a study? I guess at this point we should pay, just to make sure the deal goes through and the clean up can begin. I sincerely hope the rumour regarding the campground is false. The property on Division Street was purchased by the town to house the encampment residents. I would guess most tax paying residents of Cobourg would love to wake up to lakefront views but most can not afford the price tag nor the tax bill! If the encampment is moved to the campground that may very well be the last straw for many tax paying people in Cobourg. We are getting fed up with the whole situation . There is an old saying. It goes something like this.
Give someone a fishing rod, not a fish. In the long run that is a better solution.
Nothing is free. By the town picking up this fee it is providing a sweet bonus/incentive to the developer. We do not have an endless supply of money. This is valuable land so whoever wants to develop/ purchase it, it is their due diligence to pay for the studies in order to proceed or not. Will the T of C be asked to do this again and pay for future studies for Tribute Home Phase 3+, Phase 4+ now as a result? This is not in the Town’s best interests to set this precedent. E.g. If you want to buy land the purchaser needs to do their own due diligence. If you or I are purchasing land, it is our responsibility to ensure that the zoning is correct, not on a floodplain, etc. This is the T of C just sweetening the pot. Yes we want the deal to close but there are other developers/causes. Let the sale go to the highest bidder and they can do their own research and studies.
I don’t exactly think they’re lined up. The mayor basically said we can wait…but it might take years. And if so, the encampment grows and grows with people being bussed from Belleville, Peterborough, etc. I get that they may spread, but at least less will come from other areas as it will be less appealing. The longer Brookside stays open as a free for all encampment, the bigger the problem becomes. Please we want our town back!!!
It is surprising that the Town would pick up this cost. Usually the buyer or seller would as part of the transaction. I wonder if Council questioned why the seller (Infrastructure Ontario) would not pick this cost up; particularly as they are getting $9.1 million for the property and only the day before Ontario handed Cobourg $25 million.
I wonder if Council questioned this. And I don’t see why Mr. Cleveland was “embarrassed” because of push back from counsellors on the use of taxpayers dollars.
Normally they don’t. In this situation I think the town is desperate for a buyer. If people are unhappy with this as well as a developer buying it, blame Missy and Greenwood for this stunt in the first place. They did this as a protest because they didn’t get the cabins. Instead of everyone working together to find a solution for the people removed from drug houses they purposely plunked them on provincial property knowing the town couldn’t remove them. Now it’s grown to 106 and the druggies have taken over and held everyone hostage. Time is up the town can’t sit and wait for a preferred buyer (would have been nice) but we just need to take the first offer so we can finally close this encampment and clean up this insane mess left behind. At least if they don’t have a base camp extras will stop coming from Peterborough and Belleville, and some might go back to where they came from. Thank you Mayor Cleaveland for working so hard to put this deal together.
There’s actually only 12 to 15 campers left at brookside.
Kate and Sonya. Yes, the encampment started over a year ago when 2 properties were closed for health and safety reasons. It has grown since then. About a year ago there didn’t seem to be a exact number of people living there, individuals moved in and out. 106 is quite specific. Where did this come from? The 12 to 15 number seems much more realistic. The people in the encampment have phones and follow the news. They know something is happening so perhaps they are finding other places to live before being removed. Hopefully not more encampments. More important, in some ways, is the result of the sewer study. The cost is relatively minor. The result will help determine what will need to be done or how many homes can be built on the property. I would think the buyer would need this information as soon as possible to decide how to proceed. Hopefully the cost of the study is not a deal breaker.
I did not watch the Council meeting. Just wondering if the word, ‘compromise’ came up in the discussion as to who would pay for the study? Could the new buyer not come up with half the cost?
I cannot believe I agree with NB on this one. The Town paying full cost does set a bad precedence.
Please take time to watch the end of council meeting as this is when the above was discussed and decided, approximately at the last 20 minutes of this long meeting.
Mayor was off screen, as text only was shown, as he ranted on and it appears that it did sway two councillors who suggested that there was no hurry to do the study due to the time of year. The two councillors who voted against raised very valid concerns and questions.
Perhaps Nicole is trying to recover from the disastrous support of the development on William Street. She was a huge proponent for that project – helping to get it done in record time, championing several incentives — all for the promise of affordable housing that never happened. Balder couldn’t go to the county because there is some level of accountability there. That does not exist in the Town.
This is a terrible precedent to set. Terrible. It shows favouritism and short-sightedness and opens a door for taxpayers to continue to be taken advantage of. I constantly experience the crime influx from the encampment and watch the police do absolutely nothing. I want it gone as much as anyone else but this doesn’t make it disappear. Again, with no actual plan, I’m more apt to believe it will get worse. We aren’t any different from Belleville, Peterborough, Oshawa.
At this scale, $25K is not a make-or-break number for a developer.
You want to understand why we have astronomical property taxes? It’s because it’s been decades since we’ve had people on council who have experience in anything that relates to the economical elements that come up for voting. They consistently make emotional decisions that often appear to be for the optics of the moment. There is no plan, there is no insight, there is no deference. The mayor can rant and rave and continue to lead with his arrogance. It’s not making things better for those of us who live here. The public needs to improve their critical thinking skills. All it seems to take is for the mayor to change the inflection of his voice and the praise comes in. And the cycle of manipulation continues…
Good points. I question how this $25K Grant came about.
Was it a financial request from either IO or the Purchaser to close the transaction?
If the Study is after the closing date why is it even on the table?
Why did all counsellors not question the above two points?
Was it just a spur of the moment idea Mr. Cleveland had to impress the Premier and MPP or the Purchaser?
Just a lot of unanswered questions, particularly when you look at how Leadership struggle and question local requests for donations and grants at Budget time.
property taxes are funding a study on the flow of sh!t from a stately home for a private developer!!! Yay! lol. Whatever next?
In a way this also fits under this topic, as Encampment people will be looking for accommodation.
Does anyone know who owns Victoria Park Campground?
Fisher has a video of 2 people camped out at Gazebo by Home Hardware. The female interviewed states the County is allowing them to stay at Victoria Park Campground.
I understand the Town owns the campground, if correct does this mean the County will be referring other “campers” to stay there?
https://youtu.be/REvmfgC3dUI?feature=shared
Leslie,
You are correct. The Town owns the VPC.
In a way this fits under this topic as Encampment residents will be looking for accommodation.
Neil Ellis, the new Housing Services Manager for the County, has resigned after seven months. Previously he was Reverend of St. Andrew’s.
Perhaps there is growing discontent with County Council’s direction.
https://todaysnorthumberland.ca/2024/09/26/breaking-news-northumberland-county-housing-services-manager-resigns/
Perhaps there are Bigger problems than just Discontentment
Lets face it they are not equipped to deal with the size and scope of the Problem according to the gossip on the street . Otherwise we would not have this problem. Now the county is suggesting The Trailer Park at the Beach
as the new homeless Camp ???
Getting out before blame could be laid at his feet
If the sale closes Nov. 13, but the Study won’t be conducted until Jan. 2025, does that mean the results of the Study have no bearing on the closing?
Rational,
Good question.
Given the persistent rumours that the Town’s sewage system is close to max capacity, if I were a developer, I would want verification that there is capacity for my project.
Does the Town know what the current operational capacities of its systems are? Ask the Town, then ask the developers, builders and realtors.
Excellent Question — I know other developers / developments have been held up in this Towns Planning & Eng. dept for years over this and if no building had started with in 2 yrs of the fist $30 to $40 K study they had to do a 2nd one or Update at similar costs and seasonal time frames dragging out these studies and projects as long as 4 to 5 yrs Not to mention the Traffic , Arborist Shadow and Storm water studies to ensure there is no chance of up or down stream flooding . May be there is a lot more that’s been promised that we should know about Why else would a prudent Buyer Go Firm not knowing they had a sure thing .????????????????
I was driving by the encampment on my way home this morning. Passed one man pulling out grass by the sidewalk at the corner of Brook North and King and throwing it onto the road. Then marching away swinging his arms wildly. Headed for “Tims”? After that I passed two more men yelling at the sky as they walked along the sidewalk. I assume early AM is when the encampment residents get “juiced up” for the day. Driving by the encampment and looking at the site condition, I wondered how many of these folks really want to move to a civilized building like 310 Division Street? Looks like the County and Province have no plans to treat the drug addicts once they are moved. And could care less. Cobourg deserves better than this.
Old Sailor – I agree with you that many at Brookside certainly won’t want to move to any place where there are rules. I noted Mayor Cleveland put forth a motion with regard to mandatory treatment and rehab which I thought I had read 310 offers wrap around services. I am puzzled you state neither the County or Province cares one way or the other. I was heartened to see this motion as no other centre in Ontario has placed mandatory on the treatment spectrum due to Federal Human Rights laws which basically say an individual has full right to infringe on everyone else and continue their habit. I hope enforced rehab as passed by Council will be the first to join B.C. to reverse the ridiculous stipulations with Human Rights legislation.
They have been there so long now Just wondering if the Landlord & Tenant act
will be in effect Thus the new Buyer must give Notice and with Rent Tribunal hearings running a year behind will Piccini lend a hand / favour here to and if so will this to set a Precedent that other local Landlords might come to expect a similar leg up in the system .
If you’d driven by there this mid morning you’d have seen one homeless in a sleeping bag lying on the sidewalk by the entrance to Timmie’s drinking his morning coffee.